# Roman Empire Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 30, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165 "2011-09-30T15:31:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/41 "2011-10-04T13:39:37Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > …What struck me most was: > > the lack of law enforcement. No police, little military (for fear of uprisings), so it was gangs that ruled the different hills. > > …Or arrested as [a] thief yourself… Arrested… by whom? > [@AK84](#): > > Qualify that with any city built in the world that was not east of Constantinople. Tenochtitlan, capital of the Aztec Empire (which wasn’t really an empire), was very large but very clean: [Tenochtitlan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan) I recommend this book for anyone interested in finding out more about daily life for a Roman soldier; it’s written as if it’s a manual for a new recruit: [Legionary: The Roman Soldier's (Unofficial) Manual: Matyszak, Philip: 9780500251515: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Legionary-Soldiers-Unofficial-Manual-Manuals/dp/0500251517/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317735517&sr=1-1) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/42 "2011-10-04T14:12:57Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Now, be fair. They did have courts, even different levels. You didn’t get lynched by a mob like in the Wild West. > > But the better orator won the case, not the innocent person. The second sounds a lot like what movies make American courts look like… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/43 "2011-10-04T14:19:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Qualify that with any city built in the world that **was not east of Constantinopl** e. Priobably even then. The great Chinese cities, for example, were large but none too clean; they never had quite the hydroengineering genius of the Romans, nor the will to use it for public works in any case, barring some huge projects which worked for the benefit of the rulers. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/44 "2011-10-04T14:23:30Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I would concur, but regarding such nouns and their eponyms, I have resolved to pay the same tribute as the Irish tenants did their rents to their landlord Captain Boycott. I wonder if the products produced during the American Civil War by the Shoddy Company were any good? Great thead by the way. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/45 "2011-10-04T18:28:43Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > As noted here and in some earlier posts, medical treatment could be a disaster rather than helping, even unto relatively modern times. Consider the death of President William Henry Harrison, after just 30 days in office, as described in Wikipedia ( [William Henry Harrison - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Harrison#Death) ): Yup and (with a few exceptions) treatment of infections had not really improved any during the intervening 2000 years. Augustus’ doctors were no less likely to cure him (the fact many of them were credited with doing so is probably down to dumb luck on his/their part, as he happened to get better after they administered some treatment or other). ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/46 "2011-10-04T19:37:40Z")
Isn’t it the case that, over time in crowded urban environments, natural selection kicks in and people develop better immunities to the kinds of bugs that go around? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/47 "2011-10-04T20:32:48Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Tenochtitlan, capital of the Aztec Empire (which wasn’t really an empire), was very large but very clean: [Tenochtitlan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan) I’m afraid I don’t have enough information to compare the living condition of Tenochtitlan to Rome, but Tenochtitlan doesn’t seem to have the public Baths available in Rome. Also note the free grain available in Rome and free entertainment. Gladiatorial combat versus human sacrifice is pretty close to a push. There also didn’t seem to be a class of free citizens in Tenochtitlan and not much in term of civil rights. I think I would take 18th century London, even their streets were covered in shit. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/48 "2011-10-04T20:53:23Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Priobably even then. The great Chinese cities, for example, were large but none too clean; they never had quite the hydroengineering genius of the Romans, nor the will to use it for public works in any case, barring some huge projects which worked for the benefit of the rulers. As I recall from my reading, the ancient Japanese did better, since they considered human waste valuable fertilizer and carefully collected and recycled it. The people of Rome weren’t as fastidious about emptying their chamber pots from the upper floors of their insulae. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/49 "2011-10-04T21:36:35Z")
It’s not like Rome was particularly clean. From what we know about it, the city was dirty, crowded, noisy, violent, unsanitary, pestilential, subject to regular floods from the Tiber, and prone to fire. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/50 "2011-10-04T21:48:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s not like Rome was particularly clean. From what we know about it, the city was dirty, crowded, noisy, violent, unsanitary, pestilential, subject to regular floods from the Tiber, and prone to fire. An interesting quirk was that while the cities the Romans founding in their provinces were famously well ordered and laid out with careful planning, their mother city was the exact opposite. Rome herself was a chaotic, unsanitary (and unsafe) maze. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/51 "2011-10-05T11:35:39Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > An interesting quirk was that while the cities the Romans founding in their provinces were famously well ordered and laid out with careful planning, their mother city was the exact opposite. Rome herself was a chaotic, unsanitary (and unsafe) maze. It was very unlikely to have been a quirk. [QUOTE=JoelUpchurch] Name a specific city that you have in mind. I know some cities in the east that had some specific merits, but I think Rome in general was superior. Claiming that there was a city on the continent of Asia that was superior during a period of 1700 years is unverifiable. [/QUOTE] Baghdad. Cairo. Agra. Delhi. Cordaba. Constantinople during the reign of Basil II. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/52 "2011-10-05T12:33:00Z")
Sorry, Cordaba? I can’t place that one. If it’s Cordoba, it’s in Europe and pre-roman (there’s ruins of roman and pre-roman construction under the Mezquita Catedral). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/53 "2011-10-05T13:47:44Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m afraid I don’t have enough information to compare the living condition of Tenochtitlan to Rome… From what I’ve read, both private and public baths were common in Tenochtitlan. No free grain, but no one starved. There was free entertainment - museums, plays, concerts, athletic games, etc. There were free citizens in the Aztec Empire, but slavery too. Ritual human sacrifice was common, although wars in that culture were smaller-scale and much less lethal than in Europe. Civil rights were just as limited as in any other pre-Enlightenment theocracy; certainly you’d be freer in Georgian London. I’m not saying I’d want to live in Aztec times, but I do think the culture compares favorably to Rome on a number of points. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/54 "2011-10-05T13:53:12Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Beat me to it! 😃 You planned on dying of Lou Gehrig’s disease first? What an odd ambition… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/55 "2011-10-05T15:52:28Z")
Pompei - the north part is a mish-mash of old streets, but like modern cities and their suburbs, the expansion south is neat blocks, with neatly planned roman water and sewer systems. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/56 "2011-10-05T19:51:33Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’m not saying I’d want to live in Aztec times, but I do think the culture compares favorably to Rome on a number of points. The gods are more fun to carve into stone, for one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/57 "2011-10-05T19:52:56Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > The gods are more fun to carve into stone, for one thing. You said it! > **[huitzilopochtli - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=594&q=huitzilopochtli&gbv=2&oq=huitz&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=859l2968l0l4281l8l6l0l0l0l0l250l843l1.4.1l6l0)** ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/58 "2011-10-06T05:00:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Baghdad. Cairo. Agra. Delhi. Cordaba. Constantinople during the reign of Basil II. You really want to contend that Baghdad and Cairo were superior to 2nd Century AD Rome? Arab civil engineering was inferior to roman engineering and they didn’t even have the concept of rule of law. I recall someone referred Arab political systems as despotism tempered by inefficiency. I’m not familiar with Indian history, I’ll have to work up a rebuttal. You had already had excluded Constantinople. > [@](#): > > Qualify that with any city built in the world that was not east of Constantinople. In any case Constantinople was a far smaller city than 2nd century Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/59 "2011-10-06T05:27:00Z")
In the 8th century the ancient Chinese capital of [Chang’an](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27an) was as big as Rome at its height, and the population apparently enjoyed quite a bit in the way of public works and entertainment. I’m not sure about baths, but sanitation was handled by a series of canals, there was a great emphasis on law and order and bureaucracy, and I imagine medicine was at least on the level of the Romans and Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165/60 "2011-10-06T06:49:46Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Large Roman armies were formed that marched from one end of Europe to the other. They would need a lot of healthy men to do that successfully. > > So how did the Romans remain healthy and free of disease, and what happened when they got sick? They didn’t, and they frequently died when they got sick. It was only around the turn of the 20th century that combat killed more soldiers in war than disease did. For example, there’s a breakdown on casualties in all US wars on [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war), if you look at the columns under death it’s broken down into ‘combat’ and ‘other.’ Most of the ‘other’ is death by disease, and it is consistently higher than combat deaths, often by a very large margin, until it becomes close to even in WW1. The conditions that soldiers throughout history have lived in while on campaign invited dysentery, cholera, typhoid, pneumonia, and tuberculosis among other diseases, and was often also accompanied by poor nutrition in the field. The causes of these diseases were not fully understood, and treatment was essentially non-existent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-empire-question/598165.md?page=4)