# Roman Sexual Mores **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225 "2010-05-29T20:54:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/21 "2010-06-02T09:15:48Z")
“toga party!” ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/22 "2010-06-02T15:44:43Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Certainly not as we think of it. > > See [this photo](http://www.sewerhistory.org/images/w/wemi/wemi_Ostia_Latrine.jpg) of a row of toilets in the public latrine at Ostia, the port city of Rome. Nothing at all in the way of privacy there! In the original “Walking Tall” movie, when the new sheriff discovers the judge is undercutting him by warning about search warrants - he moves the judge’s office to the men’s room - which is a row of toilets without stalls. (The sheriff has the right to allocate office space in the county building.) Also, a journalist in the 1970’s reported on his visit to Moscow. His wife needed to use a public restroom and found it was a row of toilets without stalls. She says all the women in there stopped and stared at her while she did her business because they wanted to see what western underwear looked like. “Why didn’t you just leave?” he asked. "What, " she replied, “and miss the chance to see what Russian underwear looks like?” So even in modern times (the 1940’s and 1950’s?), a row of unstalled toilets was not unusual. OTOH, even with the Roman public baths, thre seem to be His and Hers areas and you don’t hear about debauchery in there. I suppose there was some moral standard, and most of our images of misbehaviour come from stories about private parties of the hedonistic elite who ignored those standards in private. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/23 "2010-06-02T16:17:05Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I’m not sure what’s wrong with getting sucked off while you talk to your wife. If she’s OK with it it isn’t really immoral. But yeah, you should stop watching _Blood and Sand_ and just go rewatch _Rome_. No, _Blood and Sand_ gets much, much, much better as it goes along. The episodes leading up to the season finale will give you chills. The season finale will leave you crying in the corner sucking your thumb. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/24 "2010-06-02T16:19:42Z")
There was also the scene in _Rome_ where Vorenus and Mrs. Vorenus make love on their newly acquired farmland as a religious act to ensure the land’s fertility. IN FRONT OF THEIR CHILDREN! Oh dear! No wonder Rome fell. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/25 "2010-06-02T16:48:25Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Why don’t you put them together with the others and ask “which one of you is Spartacus”? That would work. One of them would surely finger Spartacus. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/26 "2010-06-02T17:30:41Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > There was also the scene in _Rome_ where Vorenus and Mrs. Vorenus make love on their newly acquired farmland as a religious act to ensure the land’s fertility. IN FRONT OF THEIR CHILDREN! Oh dear! No wonder Rome fell. I know you’re being tongue-in-cheek, but it’s a myth that the fall of Rome had anything to do with sex. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/27 "2010-06-02T18:07:26Z")
I get the impression that the show kind of extrapolates from the most lurid and scandalous exposes of aristocratic (and imperial) Roman sexual escapades. Kind of like assuming everyone who was around during the sixties was pleasuring groupies with sharks, and having LSD crazed orgies at muddy rock concerts. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/28 "2010-06-02T18:09:00Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > …So even in modern times (the 1940’s and 1950’s?), a row of unstalled toilets was not unusual… I’m only 25 and the while toilets in the boys’ lockerroom at my high school did have stalls there were no doors on them (apparently there were in the girls’). I’ve also seen doorless stalls at places like rest stops and even the odd campground. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/29 "2010-06-02T18:15:26Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Right, but he’s saying that approvingly, right? “The Germans are more pure, more manly, unlike us Romans in these degenerate modern times.” Right, that’s my point. He’s using the Germans as an example of what is right, compared with these urbanized, immoral Romans. Really, it’s so blatant that _Germany_ is almost more useful in learning about Rome than about Germany. > [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > He he. I could see Romans coming out with statements like that today. Yep. I can just picture Tacitus writing that, then going off and shaking his cane at those damn kids on his lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/30 "2010-06-02T18:29:41Z")
Marcus Portius Cato the Censor was widely seen to be the epitome of these old Roman virtues. Dressing soberly, living austerely, disdaining ostentation, abstaining from sex unless necessary for procreation. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/31 "2010-06-02T18:29:54Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > There was also the scene in _Rome_ where Vorenus and Mrs. Vorenus make love on their newly acquired farmland as a religious act to ensure the land’s fertility. IN FRONT OF THEIR CHILDREN! Oh dear! No wonder Rome fell. I don’t think they actually had sex. He was just meant to lie on top of her symbolically. Then Niobe said something like, “You’re not pretending” to indicate that he had a boner, but I don’t think they actually had sex even after that. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/32 "2010-06-02T19:09:38Z")
\*…a guy getting s… by a slavegirl while talking to his wife, who is getting fingered… \* The antecedent is not clear. As written, the guy or the slavegirl could be doing the talking. (Who is doing the fingering is yet another question). Clarity! What would Seneca say? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/33 "2010-06-02T19:15:10Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > There was also the scene in _Rome_ where Vorenus and Mrs. Vorenus make love on their newly acquired farmland as a religious act to ensure the land’s fertility. IN FRONT OF THEIR CHILDREN! Oh dear! No wonder Rome fell. This example of imitative magic has been used by several cultures, to encourage the crops to reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/34 "2010-06-02T19:20:35Z")
Men having sex with female slaves: no problem. Women having sex with men they’re not married to: problem, but it happened of course. Men having sex with men: acceptable but with lots of ground rules. 1- No penetration between equals 2- No getting penetrated ever if you’re a free Roman 3- Do anything you want with a male slave, except seen number 2 Orgies could be parts of religious rites but that didn’t mean they were socially acceptable- ma and pa didn’t just go get their freak on and claim it was Wednesday night worship service. Augustus- two generations after Spartacus- passed a lot of reforms because women having sex outside of marriage was evidently getting out of control. Unfortunately, if accounts are to be believed, his daughter was the worst offender, so he made her an example and exiled her to a small island. Generally the Roman matron was to be demure, cultured, and 100% devoted to her husband in all matters in and outside of the bedroom. The man was expected to fool around or at least accepted if he did, but he was expected to keep free of disease and not produce a bunch of bastards, and above all- don’t be penetrated. Slaves were considered human in the aspect that you could talk to them or expect them to communicate or legally have sex with them, but they were about like dogs or other household animals in that you didn’t mind having sex in front of them, eating in front of them without giving them anything, carrying on arguments around them, etc… Slaves rarely ran away because the penalties were so severe and besides which many of them had “Property of Biggus Dikkus” (or whatever) on a metal plate that was chained to their neck if they were lucky, branded on them if they weren’t. It wasn’t like the antebellum south where slaves were so valuable that they were severely punished but rarely killed for running away- a runaway slave of no special skills was cheap enough to just kill them to make an example to others. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/35 "2010-06-04T01:31:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Men having sex with female slaves: no problem. > > Women having sex with men they’re not married to: problem, but it happened of course. > > Men having sex with men: acceptable but with lots of ground rules. Women having sex with male slaves: the shock, the horror! The modern idea of Rome as a hotbed of hedonism is really the product (in my opinion) of the way ancient writers dealt with issues of power in the Empire. As was mentioned above, sexual slurs were the stock-in-trade of Republican rhetoric, and the idea of an emperor breaking sexual taboos goes hand in hand with the idea of an emperor being above societal rules as a whole. There’s some really interesting work being done on both the quasi-encoded meaning of sexual slurs in rhetoric and also how some emperors may have used these quasi-encoded forms of behaviour to express themselves. In terms of actual reality (as much as we can say anything about ancient ‘actual reality’), there’s not much evidence for that sort of thing. Slaves and prostitutes were fair game (again, as mentioned above) but there’s nothing in any extant literature that I’m aware of that’s anything like what you’re describing. I mean, Catullus is dirty and all, but he talks about his friends who have prostitute girlfriends, and his (male) friends who have secret liasons with other men during lunch hours, and his married female lover (who he calls a big slut once she dumps him), etc. but really, that’s not much different from what’s normal nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225/36 "2010-06-04T01:50:34Z")
The Republic and Empire lasted for centuries; there was almost 400 years between the time of Spartacus and the building of Constantinople. Morals and attitudes changed frequently during that time as they have pretty much every other place over very long periods of time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-sexual-mores/541225.md?page=1)