# Romans and the middle ages **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 20, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295 "2013-09-20T10:39:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/1 "2013-09-20T10:39:06Z")
At which time in history did most of the nations of the middle ages reach the levels of knowledge and skill that the Romans had at their peak. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/2 "2013-09-20T10:53:24Z")
I have heard it said, but have no idea if it is true, that it was not until Victorian times. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/3 "2013-09-20T11:18:33Z")
It depends what you mean by “reach the levels of knowledge and skill”. There was some stuff, like how to make concrete, that didn’t get rediscovered until the 1500s-1600s. But there were other technologies where the Medieval world surpassed the ancient Romans. The Romans never knew about fractional distillation, for instance. That wasn’t developed until the 13th century. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/4 "2013-09-20T12:30:26Z")
Some agricultural innovations, such as the horse collar and heavy plow, were created in the early middle ages (6th to 8th Cen) and were a definite improvement over old Roman techniques and technology. Other techniques, like some types of fruit tree grafting, were lost after Roman times and not rediscovered for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/5 "2013-09-22T05:12:07Z")
To paint it with a broad brush, I would say the Renaissance. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/6 "2013-09-22T13:31:53Z")
I’ve always been intrigued by some lines from_A History of the English-Speaking People_. I’ve no idea if they’re valid, or the great P.M. was just “smoking something.” 😃 [QUOTE=Winston Churchill] [under Roman rule] well-to-do persons in Britain lived better than they ever did until late Victorian times. From the year 400 till the year 1900 no one had central heating and very few had hot baths. A wealthy British-Roman citizen building a country house regarded the hypocaust which warmed it as indispensable. For fifteen hundred years his descendants lived in the cold of unheated dwellings, mitigated by occasional roastings at gigantic wasteful fires. Even now a smaller proportion of the whole population dwells in centrally heated houses than in those ancient days. As for baths, they were completely lost till the middle of the nineteenth century. In all this long, bleak intervening gap cold and dirt clung to the most fortunate and highest in the land. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![zwede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ac91a4/32.png) [@zwede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwede)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/7 "2013-09-22T14:49:10Z")
How about crop yield per acre/hectar? I’d think as knowledge was lost in the middle ages they would get much less crop yield. Or is that incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/8 "2013-09-22T16:33:14Z")
> [@zwede](#): > > How about crop yield per acre/hectar? I’d think as knowledge was lost in the middle ages they would get much less crop yield. Or is that incorrect? It is correct for the early middle ages, where crop yields do seem to have dropped. This was probably less due to technological decline, than political and social disruption that led to the dissolution of the old Roman agricultural system which was characterized by huge landowners and exploitation of mass slave labor. However by the high middle ages new technology ( as noted by **Hypno-Toad** above ) allowed European agricultural yields to surpass earlier Roman yields. So you had a dip in the post-Roman era, but a recovery and advance beyond Roman capacity long before the Renaissance rolled around. ---
**Author:** ![JWT\_Kottekoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@JWT\_Kottekoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JWT_Kottekoe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/9 "2013-09-22T17:43:09Z")
In 1586, Domenico Fontana moved a 327 ton Roman obelisk in St. Peter’s Square in the Vatican. He used 900 men, 75 horses, and lots of rope, pulleys, and scaffolding. According to a history of science that I once read, this was considered to be the greatest engineering achievement since Roman times and a huge confidence booster for European civilization. Before that, it was claimed, they were in awe of the Roman achievements and did not think they could do anything comparable. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/10 "2013-09-22T19:29:47Z")
> [@JWT\_Kottekoe](#): > > In 1586, Domenico Fontana moved a 327 ton Roman obelisk in St. Peter’s Square in the Vatican. He used 900 men, 75 horses, and lots of rope, pulleys, and scaffolding. According to a history of science that I once read, this was considered to be the greatest engineering achievement since Roman times and a huge confidence booster for European civilization. Before that, it was claimed, they were in awe of the Roman achievements and did not think they could do anything comparable. Sorry for veering completely off-topic, but at 280 tonnes (310 tons?) [Le Grand menhir brisé](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Menhir_of_Er_Grah) in Brittany was nearly as massive as the Vatican Obelisk, was moved 12 kilometers from its quarry _almost 7000 years ago_ and is thought to have remained upright for seven centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/11 "2013-09-22T19:37:12Z")
> [@JWT\_Kottekoe](#): > > In 1586, Domenico Fontana moved a 327 ton Roman obelisk in St. Peter’s Square in the Vatican. He used 900 men, 75 horses, and lots of rope, pulleys, and scaffolding. According to a history of science that I once read, this was considered to be the greatest engineering achievement since Roman times and a huge confidence booster for European civilization. Before that, it was claimed, they were in awe of the Roman achievements and did not think they could do anything comparable. Likewise, I’ve heard that finding the general solution to cubic equations (in the 1500s) was seen as a startling advance beyond the math of the classical era. ---
**Author:** ![JWT\_Kottekoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@JWT\_Kottekoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JWT_Kottekoe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/12 "2013-09-22T20:03:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Sorry for veering completely off-topic, but at 280 tonnes (310 tons?) [Le Grand menhir brisé](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Menhir_of_Er_Grah) in Brittany was nearly as massive as the Vatican Obelisk, was moved 12 kilometers from its quarry _almost 7000 years ago_ and is thought to have remained upright for seven centuries. Yes, that is amazing. I can’t comment on the technical merits of those neolithic engineers relative to Fontana. He had the benefit of better public relations (not to mention a mandate from the Pope). He wrote a book about it, paintings were made, and it became known as one of Italy’s greatest engineering achievements. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/13 "2013-09-22T20:14:42Z")
And there was at least one area where the Europeans surpassed Roman technology early on: the stirrup, which some argue completely changed the value of cavalry in battle. For more information on the stirrup than you would have thought possible, see the wiki articles on the [stirrup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup), particularly the [Great Stirrup Controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stirrup_Controversy): > [@](#): > > The introduction of the stirrup not only made the mounted warrior supreme in medieval warfare, but may have initiated complex and far-reaching social and cultural changes in Europe. Some scholars credit this use of the stirrup to the birth of feudalism and its subsequent spread into Northern Italy, Spain, Germany and into the Slavic territories. It is argued that the rising feudal class structure of the European Middle Ages derived ultimately from the use of stirrups: “Few inventions have been so simple as the stirrup, but few have had so catalytic an influence on history. The requirements of the new mode of warfare which it made possible found expression in a new form of western European society dominated by an aristocracy of warriors endowed with land so that they might fight in a new and highly specialized way.”[43] Other scholars dispute this assertion, suggesting that stirrups may provide little advantage in shock warfare, but are useful primarily in allowing a rider to lean farther to the left and right on the saddle while fighting, and simply reduce the risk of falling off. Therefore, it is argued, they are not the reason for the switch from infantry to cavalry in Medieval militaries, nor the reason for the emergence of Feudalism ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/14 "2013-09-22T21:28:23Z")
So to sum up, just a bit: As several people have pointed out, one should be wary of casing the Roman period as an age of technological marvels. You can find individual technologies that were lost, some of which were indeed quite impactful. But in general the rhetoric of the “Dark Ages” in historiography has resulted in these losses being a little overemphasized in the popular imagination. It was not a matter of most everything being lost in a cataclysmic fashion, only to be discovered centuries later. In many fields - like for example mining technology, agriculture and metallurgy - medieval Europeans technology continued to develop ( or adopt/adapt from elsewhere ) and eventually outpaced their classical forerunners. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/15 "2013-09-22T22:15:26Z")
Medieval Europe vastly outpaced Roman finance. Medieval Europe had public finance, a credit economy, and sophisticated legal institutions to support overseas commerce. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/16 "2013-09-22T22:44:00Z")
Maybe in the Renaissance, not the Middle Ages _per se_. Roadmaking is another technology that was lost after Rome and not rediscovered until recently. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/17 "2013-09-22T23:01:17Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Maybe in the Renaissance, not the Middle Ages _per se_. Roadmaking is another technology that was lost after Rome and not rediscovered until recently. I’m not sure if you were replying to me, but if so, that’s false. The commercial changes in the Middle Ages were certainly more revolutionary than in the Renaissance. Even basic modern commercial concepts are medieval or origin. The word mortgage itself is medieval. _Le gage mort_ was a credit agreement, with or without security, that could be paid off over time. In other words, the agreement died (hence _mort_) when the loan was repaid. The medieval _gage vif_, or living loan, was a revolving credit agreement. The Romans never had anything like the Champagne fairs nor the institution of the law merchant. Some of this sophistication actually disappeared in the Renaissance when states became more viable economic actors with the paper to enforce long-distance transactions. Medieval merchants were able to do it without third parties thanks to their incredibly sophisticated institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/18 "2013-09-22T23:19:43Z")
Medicine was problemactic. Roman Military surgeons cleaned their tools with fire, & used wine (alcohol) to wash woulds. Used cleaned bandages, too. I cite [Legionary: The Roman Soldier’s (Unofficial) Manual by Philip Matyszak PhD.](http://www.amazon.com/dp/0500251517/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3HA2AI6G11CEY&coliid=I25W70CBSKPIET) ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/19 "2013-09-23T00:52:05Z")
What have the Romans ever done for us? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295/20 "2013-09-23T01:04:12Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > What have the Romans ever done for us? They went home. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romans-and-the-middle-ages/669295.md?page=2)