# Rome 10/2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 3, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509 "2005-10-03T01:33:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/21 "2005-10-09T23:06:18Z")
I’m not sure there is that much historical precendence to suggest that Octavian was gay. Mostly hersay and innuendo that had as much to do with political motivations as it had to do with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/22 "2005-10-09T23:09:28Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I wonder when Pullo will blow the whistle on Niobe. > > I kept getting the feeling that Octavian is gay, doesn’t want to tell his mother, and penetrated the prostitute from behind so as to see as little of her girlness as possible. Atia already accused him of having sex with Caesar, which in the future will not be entirely without foundation, yes? I was wondering if he and Pullo were ever going to have a moment… maybe later in the series. > > I have also been wondering how long the series will go on until Caesar is killed. Will we see Cleopatra take up residence across the Tiber? So far, they have covered ~5-6 years in 6 episodes, so it’s hard to say how long things will be drawn out. I don’t think Pullo will rat on Niobe, not on purpose anyway. I think, in his own rough way, he’s a good guy. I say that in spite of his killing Evander. I think he knows he made a major mistake there. He just wanted to know what was going on. As for Octavian, I don’t think he’s gay, and history doesn’t suggest it. He seems to me to be a young man raised in a peculiar environment. Puberty is a touchy time, and to have your own mother planning your loss of virginity, talking about it in front of everybody, has got to be off putting. I think he’s not always been in the best of health either, although a lot of workouts with Pullo have firmed him up. And no, I don’t forsee him and Pullo ever being involved sexually, Pullo is too straight. I don’t think as much time has passed as you think, or Octavian’s character would have had to age more. It’s hard to tell, but I think it’s been less than a year. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/23 "2005-10-09T23:56:32Z")
This is a great show! Whether it’s historically accurate or not, I don’t think we’ll be seeing much of Octavius’ sexuality, unless the show jumps forward a few years and they replace the actor with someone older. What I think is cute, is the growing relationship between Lucius & Titus. I realize they’re both 110% straight, yet they seem to act more like a married couple than anyone. What was it exactly Titus said, when Lucius was drunk and he was hoisting him over his shoulder? It sounded like “it’ll be alright lad,” but almost sounded like “it’ll be alright lamb.” Why Titus would call him “lamb” is beyond me, but would be adorable anyway. The show is _so_ much better than most of the crap on network TV this fall. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/24 "2005-10-10T01:39:55Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I don’t think Pullo will rat on Niobe, not on purpose anyway. I think, in his own rough way, he’s a good guy. I say that in spite of his killing Evander. I think he knows he made a major mistake there. He just wanted to know what was going on. I think Pullo is a good guy, but impulsive. Who knows, if things get really heated and nasty between him and Vorenus (also a good guy, but brusque and harsh at times), he might not blow the whistle. Or if something comes up wherein Vorenus’ fidelity to Niobe becomes a liability. > [@](#): > > As for Octavian, I don’t think he’s gay, and history doesn’t suggest it. I think I just have Neil Gaiman’s Sandman issue “August” in mind, though I’m sure Gaiman must have gotten the idea for that issue somewhere… > [@](#): > > And no, I don’t forsee him and Pullo ever being involved sexually, Pullo is too straight. I don’t think they’d be involved, but it would be natural for a young man questioning his sexuality to look to someone like Pullo… I mean, who wouldn’t? > [@](#): > > I don’t think as much time has passed as you think, or Octavian’s character would have had to age more. It’s hard to tell, but I think it’s been less than a year. Well, there at least you’re wrong. Caesar’s daugher/Pompey’s wife Julia died in 54BC, as shown in ep 1, “The Stolen Eagle”; in ep 4, “Stealing from Saturn,” Vorenus says he’s not a deserter b/c he became a citizen when Caesar crossed the Rubicon, which happened in 49BC. That’s the first 4 eps covering 5 years, as I said. Yes, you would think people would have aged, but the show is clearly condensing history quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/25 "2005-10-10T02:21:25Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I think I just have Neil Gaiman’s Sandman issue “August” in mind, though I’m sure Gaiman must have gotten the idea for that issue somewhere… > > I don’t think they’d be involved, but it would be natural for a young man questioning his sexuality to look to someone like Pullo… I mean, who wouldn’t? So Neil Gaiman is a scholar of Roman history now? Er, you’re basing pretty much all of your comments on Octavian’s secuality on pure sepculation. Speculation that isn’t even supported by any historical evidence. It’s a great show so don’t ruin it by introducing historical non-starters. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/26 "2005-10-10T02:54:19Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > So Neil Gaiman is a scholar of Roman history now? No, he’s not. I admitted I had no basis for my comment other than that. Move on. > [@](#): > > Er, you’re basing pretty much all of your comments on Octavian’s secuality on pure sepculation. Speculation that isn’t even supported by any historical evidence. It’s a great show so don’t ruin it by introducing historical non-starters. I made an apparently incorrect assumption through laziness (kinda like you and your spelling, eh? 😛 ). If my historical error is ruining the show for you, that’s too bad, but a little weird for you. Let it go, man, don’t rub it in. ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/27 "2005-10-10T03:07:19Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Well, there at least you’re wrong. Caesar’s daugher/Pompey’s wife Julia died in 54BC, as shown in ep 1, “The Stolen Eagle”; in ep 4, “Stealing from Saturn,” Vorenus says he’s not a deserter b/c he became a citizen when Caesar crossed the Rubicon, which happened in 49BC. That’s the first 4 eps covering 5 years, as I said. Yes, you would think people would have aged, but the show is clearly condensing history quite a bit. In episode 1 they show a little “52 BC” on the screen at the beginning. Right around the time Julia dies, I think, but I don’t remember exactly. Which is, of course, historically wrong, because she died in 54 BC, as you mentioned. But they’re playing a little fast and loose with history, and they wanted to show that it was her death that lead to a break between Pompey and Caeser (which it did, along with Crassus’s death, but they didn’t mention that). Anyways, based upon events in the last episode they’re currently in 48 BC, so four years have passed since the start of the series. Which they haven’t really done a good job of indicating, but I think they’re kinda intentionally glossing over that. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/28 "2005-10-10T03:37:06Z")
I’ve been inspired by _Rome_ to re-read Robert Graves’ _I, Claudius_, and perhaps I’m the last here to realize this, but (spoiler around historical fact) Octavian grows up to become Augustus. Imagine little [Max Pirkis](http://us.imdb.com/name/nm1263986/) turning into [Brian Blessed](http://us.imdb.com/gallery/hh/0000306/HH/0000306/iid_953509.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Blessed,%20Brian)! ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/29 "2005-10-10T16:06:22Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I made an apparently incorrect assumption through laziness (kinda like you and your spelling, eh? 😛 ). If my historical error is ruining the show for you, that’s too bad, but a little weird for you. Let it go, man, don’t rub it in. Not weird for me I’m just trying to stay true to this site: fighting ignorance and all. Glad I could be of some service. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/30 "2005-10-10T17:03:16Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Not weird for me I’m just trying to stay true to this site: fighting ignorance and all. Glad I could be of some service. Spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down, _Lochdale_. Saying I was “ruining the show” was a biiiit much. I don’t think I was wrong to indicate that Octavian seemed to have an aversion to the idea of sex in general and with a woman in particular. That plus Atia’s insinuation that he had sex with Caesar and Gaiman’s version of the story made me wonder. Not a spectacularly ignorant comment to make about a TV show. Also, you do realize that Julius Caesar was in fact bisexual? Which makes Atia’s comment seem less out of left field, doesn’t it? Might have affected Octavian’s feelings later life… Which leads me to… in my research trying to find out where I heard the thing about Augustus, I discovered that as emperor, he legislated against homosexuality. In fact, he took quite a strong stance on Roman Family Values. I wonder if the show is featuring Atia’s perversity and deviance as the roots of Octavian’s aversion for homosexuality… assuming the show goes long enough to show us Octavian as Augustus. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/31 "2005-10-10T17:11:01Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > … I wonder if the show is featuring Atia’s perversity and deviance as the roots of Octavian’s aversion for homosexuality… assuming the show goes long enough to show us Octavian as Augustus. Actually by all acounts the real Atia was a shining example of Roman matronhood. Of course historians were unlikely to write anything else about the mother of first (and traditionally greatest) emperor in Roman history. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/32 "2005-10-10T17:33:37Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Which leads me to… in my research trying to find out where I heard the thing about Augustus, I discovered that as emperor, he legislated against homosexuality. In fact, he took quite a strong stance on Roman Family Values. I wonder if the show is featuring Atia’s perversity and deviance as the roots of Octavian’s aversion for homosexuality… assuming the show goes long enough to show us Octavian as Augustus. He also took a very strong stance against prostitution. The show is still fiction and a lot of what we are seeing are the writer’s interpretation of historical events. We just don’t have any evidence that he was homosexual (other than Neil Gaimen and a possible interpretation of a HBO show). My take on it is that Octavian is adverse to prostitution rather than to women. Indeed, I saw more “sexuality” between Octavian and his sister than I did between Pullo and Octavian. As for Caesar, he was “every man’s woman and every woman’s man” (to paraphrase Cicero I believe). ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/33 "2005-10-10T18:19:46Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > He also took a very strong stance against prostitution. The show is still fiction and a lot of what we are seeing are the writer’s interpretation of historical events. We just don’t have any evidence that he was homosexual (other than Neil Gaimen and a possible interpretation of a HBO show). Hey, ya know, I _got_ that now. Thanks. Apparently his sister is the queer one anyway… I was close. > [@](#): > > My take on it is that Octavian is adverse to prostitution rather than to women. Indeed, I saw more “sexuality” between Octavian and his sister than I > did between Pullo and Octavian. I saw an overall aversion for both kinds of sex, for sex talk, prostitution, all that. I think it’s a foreshadowing of his later conservativism, possibly supposed to be a reaction to his mother’s sexuality. [Spoiler about 10/9 show:] Octavia may also be reacting to that in her attraction to Servilia; that may be the message the show is trying to give, that Atia sent her kids careening into their views and attitudes about sex. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509/34 "2005-10-10T19:27:11Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I saw an overall aversion for both kinds of sex, for sex talk, prostitution, all that. I think it’s a foreshadowing of his later conservativism, possibly supposed to be a reaction to his mother’s sexuality. Octavia may also be reacting to that in her attraction to Servilia; that may be the message the show is trying to give, that Atia sent her kids careening into their views and attitudes about sex. That’s an interesting way of looking at it. You might be on to something there. Octavian could also just be fairly sedate and not that interested in exposing his sex life. The sister threw me for a loop but damn was it sexy! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-10-2/324509.md?page=1)