# Rome 11/20 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 21, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024 "2005-11-21T02:53:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/1 "2005-11-21T02:53:43Z")
I believe the proper thing to say here is ‘Don’t Fuck with Servillia’. Breaking to Atia at their meeting was just plain COLD, though I can’t say that Atia didn’t deserve it. Very well done stabbing scene there. No ‘Eu Tu Brutus’, which Shakespeare added, and you could see how difficult it was for Brutus, to the anguished scream at the end. Poor Vorenus. He seemed like he was trying to calm down and Naobi flings herself from the railing. Though it seems Pullo has found love. They’ll probably join with Antony when he goes after Brutus and Cassius, and then… who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Survey1215](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Survey1215](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Survey1215)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/2 "2005-11-21T02:58:55Z")
Man was THAT depressing. I wish I knew more about Roman history - I’m hoping Vorenus gets to take out Servillia in the Season Two opener (coming to your home in spring 2008 if we’re lucky :smack: ) ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Bruin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Queen\_Bruin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Bruin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/3 "2005-11-21T03:06:30Z")
Man did you see that look Octavian gave Servilia? But DAMN! What an evil wench. I can’t wait for the second season. And I’m so pissed that Niobe offed herself. What a freakin’ catastrophe. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/4 "2005-11-21T03:30:51Z")
_If_ there is a second season I see Vorenus letting his daughter choose her own husband, after what has happened to him. I also liked that Caesar didn’t/couldn’t speak during his assasination. I don’t know what Servilia will actually do, but after the look Octavian gave her I’d back off. Methinks a lot of them will underestimate that young man. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/5 "2005-11-21T03:34:52Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > _If_ there is a second season I see Vorenus letting his daughter choose her own husband, after what has happened to him. I’ve heard it’s been picked up for a 2nd season. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/6 "2005-11-21T03:35:29Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I believe the proper thing to say here is ‘Don’t Fuck with Servillia’. Breaking to Atia at their meeting was just plain COLD, though I can’t say that Atia didn’t deserve it. As much as Atia deserves it, I think Servilia is going to be sorry in the end, considering Octavian’s future and that look he gave her on the way out. He’s no one to be trifled with either. At this point, I have no sympathy for Servilia. She’s outdone Atia with her schemes and life-wrecking. > [@](#): > > Poor Vorenus. Amen. My god, that was horrible. I really like the guy and he was just finding his place in the world. I guess that’s the price of being a public personality-- no secret goes untold. > [@](#): > > Though it seems Pullo has found love. That was a bit of surprise ending to the show. > [@](#): > > They’ll probably join with Antony when he goes after Brutus and Cassius, and then… who knows. I imagine we’ll see the whole Antony/Octavia and Antony/Cleopatria triangle go down, and the rise of Octavian. Should be fun. Hope we don’t have to wait for 3 years for the next season. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/7 "2005-11-21T03:38:36Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I imagine we’ll see the whole Antony/Octavia and Antony/Cleopatria triangle go down, and the rise of Octavian. Should be fun. Hope we don’t have to wait for 3 years for the next season. Indeed… but I wonder who Pullo supports and who Vorenus supports. That will be the interesting part, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/8 "2005-11-21T03:50:42Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Very well done stabbing scene there. No ‘Eu Tu Brutus’, which Shakespeare added, and you could see how difficult it was for Brutus, to the anguished scream at the end. The whole assasination scene was very close to how Suetonius described it in \*Twelve Caesars. Suetonius makes note of the (probably apocryphal) rumor that Caesar had said “_Kai su, Teknon_” (Greek for “You also, my son?”) but seems not to believe it. > [@Suetonius](#): > > As he took his seat, the conspirators gathered about him as if to pay their respects, and straightway Tillius Cimber, who had assumed the lead, came nearer as though to ask something; and when Caesar with a gesture put him off to another time, Cimber caught his toga by both shoulders; then as Caesar cried, “Why, this is violence!” one of the Cascas stabbed him from one side just below the throat.Link to the editor’s note at the bottom of this page section 2Caesar caught Casca’s arm and ran it through with his stylus,Link to the editor’s note at the bottom of this page but as he tried to leap to his feet, he was stopped by another wound. When he saw that he was beset on every side by drawn daggers, he muffled his head in his robe, and at the same time drew down its lap to his feet with his left hand, in order to fall more decently, with the lower part of his body also covered. **And in this wise he was stabbed with three and twenty wounds, uttering not a word, but merely a groan at the first stroke, though some have written that when Marcus Brutus rushed at him, he said in Greek, “You too, my child?”** All the conspirators made off, and he lay there lifeless for some time, and finally three common slaves put him on a litter and carried him home, with one arm hanging down. And of so many wounds none turned out to be mortal, in the opinion of the physician Antistius, except the second one in the breast. [Suetonius, _Life of Julius Caesar_](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html). I thought that the expression on Caesar’s face when he saw Brutus with the knife expressed his sense of disappointment and betrayal beuatifully. He might not have said Shakespeare’s line out loud but he said it with his face. It was a wonderful piece of acting by Hinds. What a bummer that Niobe killed herself. Voernus’ life is coming aprt at the seams right as Pullo is starting to regain some hope in his own life. Good scene with Servillia and Atia at the end. Atia totally got out-bitched for the first time in her life. Servillia better watch out for Octavian, though, Something tells me that he’s going to land on his feet, and that’s one kid you don’t want pissed at you. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/9 "2005-11-21T03:55:02Z")
I dunno–I didn’t like it much. The ending seemed rushed. The whole Pullo/Eirene thing at the end bugged me, and the Niobe thing seemed sort of predictable. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/10 "2005-11-21T05:34:01Z")
I enjoyed much of this series but the Niobe’s son story line was poorly done. Everyone in town would have known that she was pregnant and probably by whom. You can’t exactly hide that. Plus, didn’t she almost tell Vorenius and he shushed her and said that the past was the past. The slave girl falling in love with Pullo at the end made no damn sense either. That said, the sets and the dialogue were great and the growth of the friendship between Vorenius and Pullo and how they showed their loyalty to one another was funn to watch. I hope that there is a second season. That kid who plays Octavian is great. There will be no more first run HBO drama series through the Holidays. Does anyone know what is coming in January. I think that The Sopranos and Deadwood aren’t scheduled until later in the year. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/11 "2005-11-21T05:50:39Z")
Is anyone else annoyed that the series has been so busy with soap opera that they’ve done almost nothing to show us what drove Brutus and his associates to assassinate Caesar? They talked a lot about his being a tyrant, and we see that he did have a political enemy or two killed, but otherwise he was portrayed as a rather pleasant, reasonable, and even forgiving fellow. Are we supposed to know our history well enough to just take it for granted that he deserved to be offed? It’s just one of the reasons why this series hasn’t grabbed me as much as most of the other original HBO shows. ---
**Author:** ![Yogurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/f0a364/32.png) [@Yogurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yogurt)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/12 "2005-11-21T06:04:28Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > There will be no more first run HBO drama series through the Holidays. Does anyone know what is coming in January. I think that The Sopranos and Deadwood aren’t scheduled until later in the year. Before the episode aired, a Sopranos preview said March 2006, so it’ll be a few months. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/13 "2005-11-21T06:09:54Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > Is anyone else annoyed that the series has been so busy with soap opera that they’ve done almost nothing to show us what drove Brutus and his associates to assassinate Caesar? Actually, I thought they made it quite clear what their motivation was. He made himself dictactor and appointed compliant senators and even expanded the senate to include 100 additional senators (who were chosen for their loyalty to him). ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/14 "2005-11-21T13:18:10Z")
Both Deadwood and The Wire are billed as having new seasons in 2006. Those are my two favorite shows, so I’ll be happy whichever comes on next. Upon consideration, I have to agree with **hajaro** – how would Niobe be able to hide her pregnancy from everyone she knew? Why wouldn’t someone have spilled to Vorenus earlier? He did have considerable enemies well before he became a senator. I also didn’t quite buy Niobe’s suicide. She just didn’t seem the type, and I’m fairly certain he would have forgiven her eventually. I also found Eirene’s change of heart towards Pullo a bit shocking. It reminded me of _Oz_, when that female doctor fell in love with Ryan O’Riley, even after he had her husband killed. This is something about _Rome_ that struck me-- every bad thing that happens to a man seems to be due to his love for a woman. Brutus killed Caesar via a spurned Servilia’s manipulation, brought about by Atia. Servilia also convinced Octavia to commit incest with her brother, earning his emnity and screwing up his and his sister’s lives. Pullo’s degeneration came about due to his despair that Eirene loved another man. Vorenus’ happiness was destroyed by his love for a faithless wife. Antony’s downfall will be Cleopatra, who also brought about Ptolemy’s ruination. Seems like women are bad news in this show. Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Poonther](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Poonther](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poonther)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/15 "2005-11-21T13:53:48Z")
I’d appreciate an answer or two to the following questions from you history buffs: Approximately how many years passed from the time this first season began and ended? How long is it between Caesar’s death and Octavian’s becoming ruler? And how old is Octavian when he becomes ruler? Thanks in advance! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/16 "2005-11-21T15:14:56Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I also didn’t quite buy Niobe’s suicide. She just didn’t seem the type, and I’m fairly certain he would have forgiven her eventually. Vorenus had just picked up the knife. She probably believed that he was going to kill her, which would have been appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/17 "2005-11-21T15:19:59Z")
The show began as Caesar was defeating the Gauls, which would be around 52 BC. Caesar was murdered in 44 BC, so it would have been a span of 8 years. The show tried to depict that passage of time. For example, when Vorenus arrived home, Niobe’s son was an infant. In the last scene where he’s holding Niobe, the boy appeared and he seemed to be about 8. Octavian was 19 when Caesar was murdered, and I think he became a consul of Rome pretty much right away. Caesar named him his heir in his will, so he had some standing right out of the gate. The next decade or so saw a lot of jockeying for power between Octavian and Antony. Octavian slowly gained the upper hand and eventually controlled Rome. He earned the title of Augustus in 27 BC, when he was 36. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/18 "2005-11-21T15:21:42Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Vorenus had just picked up the knife. She probably believed that he was going to kill her, which would have been appropriate. I’m sure he was thinking about it, but there’s no way he would have done it. I think she knew that too. It seemed to me that it was remorse and self-recrimination that caused her to jump, not fear of Vorenus. In fact, I think she knew he wouldn’t kill her-- she seemed more concerned that he was going to hurt the little boy than that he was going to hurt her. I wondered if maybe her suicide was a way to force him to accept the little boy, cementing it her death. In any case, as with most suicides, I suspect if she’d just held out a little longer, things would have resolved themselves, painfully but surely. Ah well. Very sad. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/19 "2005-11-21T16:35:03Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Vorenus had just picked up the knife. She probably believed that he was going to kill her, which would have been appropriate. Was I the only one who thought he was gathering courage to kill himself? As a soldier and Senator, I thought that having his honor compromised in such a way might be too much to bear. Additionally, the writers took time to contrast his character with Pullo’s - Pullo would have killed her. I never got the feeling Niobe was in danger in that scene. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024/20 "2005-11-21T16:50:29Z")
> [@unwashed brain](#): > > Was I the only one who thought he was gathering courage to kill himself? Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Or, rather, I wasn’t sure if he picked up the knife in anger at Niobe or wiht the intention of doing himself in. That was a sad ending. Vorenus is being swept along in the current, with not much control over his life. I’ve been wondering all along how Vorenus could NOT know the truth about the kid. Someone surely would’ve told him, if only out of \*shadenfreude \*as he started to rise in power. What are those long stick-like things that Caesar’s body guards (or whatever they are) carry around throught the streets. Are the weapons or just some sort of ceremonial objects? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-11-20/332024.md?page=2)