# Rome: 9/25 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 26, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456 "2005-09-26T06:31:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/1 "2005-09-26T06:31:36Z")
Man, is that Octavian a cold little bastard or what? What fascinating combination of ruthlessness and intelligence. If anyone was ever born to be a Roman Emperor, it’s him. Where was this actor when Lucas was casting Anakin? This whole episode was one disturbing scene of casual cruelty after another. Even Vorenus, who has a semblence of a moral center (he’s willing to break a guy’s arm for pay, but drawas the line at slitting his throat) showed no compassion at all for the little slave boy that he brought home, and the whole family treated the kid like it was a stray puppy he had brought in from the street. I was put off by Caesar’s beating of Servilia and I think it has made me suddenly less sympathetic to the character. I was surprised, yet quite sympatheric when Servilia was calling down detailed curses from the gods on both Caesar and Atia. I also remembered that Brutus is her son… I don’t know if this show is quite at a _Sopranos_ or _Deadwood_ level for me but it’s still very good. Octavian is really starting to stand out as a character. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/2 "2005-09-26T06:47:38Z")
I found this episode disturbing, also. I kept repeating to myself, “expanding moral compass… expanding moral compass… expanding moral compass.” And was Julius Caesar really epileptic? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/3 "2005-09-26T06:55:46Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > And was Julius Caesar really epileptic? Probably. It was attested by multiple historians. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/4 "2005-09-26T09:28:13Z")
Yeah, Octavian was definitely fleshed out a bit more this episode. I have to admit I got a laugh when the slave boy was brought home and Vorenus’ daughter says they should name him after her pet bird that died. The way the show displays the status of slaves is very interesting. You have slaves that are basically non-entities (like the guy shaving Ceasar or the guy helping Marcus clean himself), and then you have Ceasar’s personal slave. (I’ve forgotten his name, unfortunately.) Not only is he treated significantly better than most slaves, but Ceasar actually listens to and trusts his advice. I know little of history, but I’m guessing this was probably fairly common - slaves had their own separate social heirarchy, in a sense. I can’t help but think of Vorenus’ temporary employer as the Tony Soprano of Rome. He’s got a somewhat similar body type, he wears a chain around his neck, he discusses bidness in saunas, he breaks people’s arm when they don’t pay him on time … I’m guessing much of this was intentional. Man, you could write a thesis on the morality of the characters of this show. Vorenus is not an evil man, is he? Yet, he’s a wannabe slave-trader who would probably kill his wife if he found out she’d “cheated” on him, even though the only reason she did so was because he’d been gone for 8 years and she assumed he was dead. Titus Pullo may be a rogue and a scoundrel, but it’s hard to label him _evil_ - even though he’ll cut off the thumbs of a man at the order of a 12 year old. Great show. Thank you, HBO! ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/5 "2005-09-26T13:11:46Z")
This show is really getting good, I’m thoroughly hooked. Episode one had me a little undecided. I thought it had potential, but I din’t quite love it. Here were 4 episodes in and I’m already at the point where I can’t wait a week between episodes. I’m really loving it. Honestly, though I know much of it is barely based in reality, it still makes me interested to learn (re-learn) more about Roman history. Something in college I knew pretty well. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I was put off by Caesar’s beating of Servilia and I think it has made me suddenly less sympathetic to the character. I was surprised, yet quite sympatheric when Servilia was calling down detailed curses from the gods on both Caesar and Atia. I also remembered that Brutus is her son… I found this scene interesting. At first I thought it was really out of character based on what we’ve seen of Ceasar. Then, after giving a little thought, I supposed that perhaps Ceasar was beating her in order to make it easier for her to accept the break-up. Knowing that she’d always be pining for him and trying to lure him back if he left it as is. By slapping her around he was able to create more finality in the break-up. Sorta the equivalent of throwing rocks at that stray pet who followed you home, not because you want to hurt it or anything, just because it’s the only way it’ll run away from you without being as heart wrenching. Then again, it could just be the fact that men in Rome felt entitled to that. If Marc Antony had done it, that’s how Id have taken it. Ceasar however seemed more thoughtful and genuine with Servilla. Makes me think it’s more complex than him just being a brute. ---
**Author:** ![Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/6 "2005-09-26T13:29:03Z")
The kid that plays Octavian is Max Pirkis. He was very good in _Master and Commander_. I’m enjoying Mark Antony. James Purefoy is gorgeous, but I have always thought his mannerisms were a bit odd. It’s working well in this role. Atia’s speech pattern sounds to me a little like Jennifer Saunders on _Ab Fab_, so Atia and her daughter remind me a little bit of Eddy and Saffron. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/7 "2005-09-26T13:31:11Z")
> [@Eleanor of Aquitaine](#): > > The kid that plays Octavian is Max Pirkis. He was very good in _Master and Commander_. Wow, I totally did not make that connection. He’s really sprouted up. The voice really should have been a give away. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/8 "2005-09-26T14:01:25Z")
I wonder if those were historically accurate curses? Servilia used the same formula for both Caesar and Atia; do we have a written record of such a ritual? Sounds believable, anyway. Good “woman scorned” scene. After the scene where Atia is happy at the thought of her pubescent son seducing her uncle, I have to wonder if she’ll ever receive a mug that says “World’s Best Mom!” ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/9 "2005-09-26T14:51:18Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > After the scene where Atia is happy at the thought of her pubescent son seducing her uncle, I have to wonder if she’ll ever receive a mug that says “World’s Best Mom!” I’ve gathered that, in the context of the time, this wouldn’t be considered bad form. Men and boys routinely had relationships, and in no way was it considered to be inappropriate. These relationships often would have been considered very socially profitable for the boy who was a favorite of someone so powerful. Atia is a pretty reprehensible shrew even for her time, but based on what the history channel has taught me, this probably isn’t one of the examples of it. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/10 "2005-09-26T15:32:33Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > I have to admit I got a laugh when the slave boy was brought home and Vorenus’ daughter says they should name him after her pet bird that died. I really appreciate the way they’re treating slaves in this series. Nothing irks me more than shows with a historical setting which have characters thinking in twentieth century ways. > [@](#): > > Man, you could write a thesis on the morality of the characters of this show. Vorenus is not an evil man, is he? Yet, he’s a wannabe slave-trader who would probably kill his wife if he found out she’d “cheated” on him, even though the only reason she did so was because he’d been gone for 8 years and she assumed he was dead. For the times, that would be a perfectly reasonable reaction, especially considering it’s her _brother-in-law_ she was fucking. Practically incest! Secondly, she manipulated him into marrying his daughter off to a lower-status man because of the baby. He probably would have made a much better match (meaning more beneficial for him) for the girl if he hadn’t thought she was “tarnished goods.” > [@](#): > > Titus Pullo may be a rogue and a scoundrel, but it’s hard to label him evil - even though he’ll cut off the thumbs of a man at the order of a 12 year old. “I’ve never actually tortured anybody . . . they have specialists!” I think Atia described him best: “The cheerful brutish one.” He’s very much a man of his times-- not cruel or nasty by nature, just doing what he must. > [@Baldwin](#): > > I wonder if those were historically accurate curses? Servilia used the same formula for both Caesar and Atia; do we have a written record of such a ritual? Sounds believable, anyway. Good “woman scorned” scene. “May she be raped by dogs.” :eek: Wow, that’s _harsh!_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/11 "2005-09-26T17:06:05Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > This whole episode was one disturbing scene of casual cruelty after another. Even Vorenus, who has a semblence of a moral center (he’s willing to break a guy’s arm for pay, but drawas the line at slitting his throat) showed no compassion at all for the little slave boy that he brought home, and the whole family treated the kid like it was a stray puppy he had brought in from the street. Yeah, didn’t they say “What’s its name”? I’m guessing, though, that the family is going to become attached to the boy and Lucius won’t have the heart to sell him once he gets his color back. We’ll see. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if this show is quite at a _Sopranos_ or _Deadwood_ level for me but it’s still very good. Octavian is really starting to stand out as a character. No, it’s more like “Dallas, BC” or “Desperate Housewives of Ancient Rome”. 🙂 It’s very good, but “Sopranos” or “Deadwood”, _non est_. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/12 "2005-09-26T17:29:20Z")
Fascinated by the curse scene. It looked like the last step in the curse was to slip it into a crack in a wall? What was that all about? What position was Vorenus promoted to? Something I alluded to a few weeks ago – it looks like all jobs in the army and the government require priestly rituals. Interesting. I thought Pullo and Vorenus should’ve switched jobs – Vorenus would’ve been a more refined tutor, and Pullo would’ve been a more imposing bodyguard. When a character said something like “buono dio!” (Good god!) was that Latin, or Italian? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/13 "2005-09-26T17:53:25Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > What position was Vorenus promoted to? Most likely _praefectus castrorum_ or camp prefect. Basically the third in rank in a legion, in charge of maintaining equipment, camp, overseeing training - that sort of thing. They also took field command in absense of the higher ranking tribunes ( six of them ) or legate ( the legion commander ). The are other sorts of lesser prefects ( usually in charge of auxillary units ), but it is highly likely that his office is camp prefect both due to a.) the urgency with which Antony courted him and b.) it is the common promotion step from his previous rank of _primus pilus_ or ‘first spear centurion’ ( really, ‘first javelin’ ). The _primus pilus_ were always long-service veterans and were the senior subaltern officers of the legion - promotion to _praefectus castrorum_ was as high as you could go in legionary rank if you were a plebian and promotion to that rank came with an accompanying increase in social standing - promtion to the equestrian social class after retirement. In addition as a returning veteran that had voluntarily re-enlisted ( after a twenty year term of service ), he was inducted into the _evocati_, the special corps of re-enlisted officers that were given special priviledges and pay and were regarded as role models. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/14 "2005-09-26T18:03:16Z")
I got the impression that Servilia’s slave was slipping the curses into cracks in their recipient’s houses, making them more potent somehow. Scary, scary scene of the cursing. La belle dame sans merci. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/15 "2005-09-26T18:03:11Z")
I got the impression that Servilia’s slave was slipping the curses into cracks in their recipient’s houses, making them more potent somehow. Scary, scary scene of the cursing. La belle dame sans merci. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/16 "2005-09-26T18:04:51Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > “May she be raped by dogs.” :eek: Wow, that’s _harsh!_ Maybe not all that idle or farfetched a wish. I remember reading a popular account of Rome that said entertainments in the Arena included women being raped by jackals. I’d take that with a grain of salt – I have trouble seeing how you could train jackals to rape human women. Domestic dogs, maybe, but jackals? Then again, it may be just a matter that no one has tried that in modern times … and good on us if that is so. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/17 "2005-09-26T18:13:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I really appreciate the way they’re treating slaves in this series. Nothing irks me more than shows with a historical setting which have characters thinking in twentieth century ways. I’d say “Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman” might be the gold standard for the kind of historical fiction where everybody we’re supposed to like is remarkably enlightened for the time. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/18 "2005-09-26T18:53:04Z")
Just an FYI…Octavian was 13 when Caesar crossed the Rubicon (January, 49 BC). Max Pirkis is 16 as of last January. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/19 "2005-09-26T19:51:24Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I thought Pullo and Vorenus should’ve switched jobs – Vorenus would’ve been a more refined tutor, and Pullo would’ve been a more imposing bodyguard. I think Atia specifically chose Pullo for a tutor because she wanted her son to be more masculine. I think she even said he was to take her son whoring. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456/20 "2005-09-26T20:58:06Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > I’d say “Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman” might be the gold standard for the kind of historical fiction where everybody we’re supposed to like is remarkably enlightened for the time. Good call. Does anyone know what those things are that the slaves are all wearing around their necks? Looks like a namplate of some sort-- “I belong to XXX”? Also, I’m wondering if there was any significant abolitionist debate in Rome at this time. I’m guessing not, but would someone who advocated the freeing of slaves been just laughed at (or possibly even thrown into the arena)? I think our modern understanding of freedom is just that: modern (ie, a product of the enlightenment that was generally inconceivable before then). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-9-25/323456.md?page=2)