# Rome thread redux (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 26, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890 "2015-01-26T00:02:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/21 "2015-01-27T00:04:39Z")
Your description of the future storylines sounds interesting; I’m _really_ sorry the show ended prematurely. But a big problem was the enormous budget. I think each season cost about $100 million. (On the other hand, Game of Thrones is about at that level of expense.) And I think after the second season filmed, there was a fire at Cinecittà Studios in Rome where they’d built the very elaborate sets. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/22 "2015-01-27T00:05:20Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > So, one dumb question has been bugging me since watching the show. In a few scenes (including, IIRC, the intro) there’s a large stone grid / calendar type thing overlooking the forum, and you see people moving metal indicators into different slots. What exactly was that thing? It seemed to be more than a simple calendar, at least. Its just a public calendar. They’re changing the date. > **[Roman calendar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar)** > > The Roman calendar was the calendar used by the Roman Kingdom and Roman Republic. Although the term is primarily used for Rome's pre-Julian calendars, it is often used inclusively of the Julian calendar established by the reforms of the Dictator Julius Caesar and Emperor Augustus in the late 1st century BC.\[a\] > According to most Roman accounts, their original calendar was established by their legendary first king Romulus. It consisted of ten months, beginning in spring with March and leaving wi... Somewhere I read that Game of Thrones is something 1/3 the cost of Rome. There’s a broad shot of the Aventine Hill that supposedly cost a fortune. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/23 "2015-01-27T00:11:43Z")
The first episode of Rome aired about 9 1/2 years ago. That’s forever in computer technology. I wonder if Game of Thrones is able to do stuff with CGI more cheaply than was done with Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/24 "2015-01-27T00:31:48Z")
The whole show takes serious liberties with historical figures- Atia being the most so (she was actually married throughout the time period of the first season, was probably not remotely like the Edina Monsoon meets Alexis Carrington character in ROME, and was long dead by the time the series ended)- but because the condensing of several seasons into the final they took some whoppers, so it’s not to be trusted as history. As _anthropology_, however, it’s probably one of the most accurate representations ever of life in ancient Rome. And I was very glad that Pullo and Vorenus gave us the chance to see working class Rome, which was fascinating in a completely different way from palace Rome. _Game of Thrones_ may be as expensive, but it’s a much bigger hit; _Rome_ only had an average of 3 million viewers by the last few episodes while GoT has well over twice that. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/25 "2015-01-27T02:04:38Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > As _anthropology_, however, it’s probably one of the most accurate representations ever of life in ancient Rome. > And I was very glad that Pullo and Vorenus gave us the chance to see working class Rome, which was fascinating in a completely different way from palace Rome. This is why I liked this show so much. The varying viewpoints give such a varied and interesting view of life in that culture. I can forgive most of the streamlining / condensing of history, although I do think they oversimplify Caesar himself a bit too much for my tastes. I wish they’d started the story a bit earlier and dug into the First Triumvirate more to show how Caesar climbed the ladders of power in Rome. He was an interesting guy who led an interesting life even before he toppled the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/26 "2015-01-27T02:15:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And I didn’t like the characters of Varinas and Pullo for the same reason. It was a gimmick to throw two “normal” people into the middle of historical events. > > It’s like studio executives don’t believe we can appreciate history unless they shrink it down. Pullo and Vorenus were actual historical Roman centurions, mentioned in the writings of Julius Caesar. They were every bit as ferocious in battle as the series depicted. Taking these two historical figures and building a series around them was inspired, since stories abound concerning Caesar, Anthony and Brutus. I thought the series was brilliantly acted and the production values very high. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/27 "2015-01-27T06:10:17Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > So, one dumb question has been bugging me since watching the show. In a few scenes (including, IIRC, the intro) there’s a large stone grid / calendar type thing overlooking the forum, and you see people moving metal indicators into different slots. What exactly was that thing? It seemed to be more than a simple calendar, at least. Long story : the Roman calendar was pretty complex, because their days were divided between so-collad “fastus”, “nefastus” days and “intercessus” days which had a religious significance : some days were exclusively reserved for this or that god, or for the circus games. On those days men were absolutely forbidden to work or do politics and had to perform religious ceremonies instead (the “nefastus” days). Others were normal days (the “fastus”), and some were a little of both (the “intercessus”). On top of that, there was another system (the “comitialis days”) which marked which days were auspicious to hold votes on - voting being itself a sort of religious ceremony. And yet \*another \*set of days during which the “king” (or at least the magistrate that got the ceremonial title of king after the actual kings were sent to Coventry) could call for assemblies to gather. So that’s a bit complicated, especially when people don’t have Blackberries. Hence, the public calendars which were published on the forums (not just of Rome, either - every Roman city had one, in marble or metal). I’m not 100% on whether the whole bronze tokens being moved from day to day really existed, but the Romans were very much into the whole monumentality thing, so why not ? Long story short : yeah, that was a real Thing. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/28 "2015-01-27T06:44:42Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Pullo and Vorenus were actual historical Roman centurions, mentioned in the writings of Julius Caesar. They were every bit as ferocious in battle as the series depicted. Taking these two historical figures and building a series around them was inspired, since stories abound concerning Caesar, Anthony and Brutus. I thought the series was brilliantly acted and the production values very high. They were both junior centurions as opposed to the First Spear Centurion (as Vorenus) or private soldier as Pullo. Pullo was a Pompey supporter to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/29 "2015-01-27T07:07:53Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Pullo and Vorenus were actual historical Roman centurions, mentioned in the writings of Julius Caesar. They were every bit as ferocious in battle as the series depicted. Taking these two historical figures and building a series around them was inspired, since stories abound concerning Caesar, Anthony and Brutus. I thought the series was brilliantly acted and the production values very high. It was a story about Caesar, Anthony, and Brutus. Pullo and Vorenus may have been real people but they were not the central characters in the founding of the Roman Empire. Now that’s fine if they were going for a _Mrs Miniver_ approach and showing how major historical events appeared to a “man on the street”. But Rome wasn’t doing that. They were showing all the main historical events from the top - but they brought in two common people. If you’re telling Caesar’s story then Caesar is your obvious focus not the guy who happened to be standing fifty feet away from Caesar. And as a bonus, if you make Caesar the center character of Caesar’s story, you automatically have your main character present at all the important events - these events were important because your main character was present. You don’t have to strain your story coming up with reasons why these two minor nobodies happened to always be in the vicinity when anything important happened. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/30 "2015-01-27T07:14:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was a story about Caesar, Anthony, and Brutus. Pullo and Vorenus may have been real people but they were not the central characters in the founding of the Roman Empire. Did you not see the episode where Titus Pullo brought down the Roman Republic? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/31 "2015-01-27T07:28:27Z")
> [@Tuxie](#): > > -Why didn’t Atia execute/banish her head slave who was initially seduced by her attempted assassin? Seems like having someone so close to you who is hot for boys in that kind of way would be a real liability, from a security standpoint. He’s a competent, intelligent man who’s served with her for years. > [@](#): > > How did Titus Pullo manage to survive his brain surgery? he has a prosthetic copper ‘cap’ on the back of his head, but doesn’t seem worse for wear from it. Meanwhile Lucius’ 3rd man in the Collegium gets permanently crippled when their convoy is ambushed. As Caesar himself said, “They have powerful gods on their side.” > [@](#): > > It really annoyed me that Lucius never explained to anyone “Yeah I was angry I found out my wife had a baby out of wedlock and when I confronted her she threw herself off the balcony”. Instead, his children hate him for presumably murdering their mother. He also cursed them, which he never seemed to apologize for, yet at the same time he rescued them from slavery. Ultimately, though, it made me realize why they typically didn’t let Centurions marry; they seem to be rather abusive husbands and fathers (and Lucius struck me as a rather ‘lawful’ kind of guy among many other Roman scumbags). Lucius isn’t really a _people person_. Even if he didn’t kill his wife, he probably _would have_ about three seconds later if she hadn’t taken a dive off the balcony. And why should he apologize for cursing the children? I mean he revoked it. Isn’t that enough? (In case you can’t tell, I’m kind of joking around - but that’s how Lucius operates. “How do I make her love me, obviously!”) > [@](#): > > Does anyone actually get punished for murder in this series? People kill each other left and right, lovers get murdered in jealous rages, politicians assassinated, etc. The closest they got was Pullo getting tried for muder, yet Lucius (who was apparently elevated to a politician at the time) intervened…and there was no backlash from this. There isn’t exactly a CSI unit on-hand, so most murders will never be solved. And Lucius getting pardoned for helping Pullo was explained by Caesar. He _wanted_ to punish Lucius (remember, he didn’t want anyone who could be traced to him helping Pullo because he didn’t want there to be a connection between himself and the assassin that he actually _did_ hire) but when Lucius rescued his comrade from the arena he became a folk hero, a symbol of brotherly love and redemption. Caesar isn’t about to punish a hero of the people! And besides, even ignoring Lucius’ usefulness, I get the feeling that Caesar just kind of likes him. > [@](#): > > -Did the news announcers really announce ads? It was pretty funny hearing the poor fat guy reluctantly having to promote some brand of bread and slave dealer like a radio personality hawking some grocery store and used car salesman. Also, I really liked his overexaggerated body language; “GAIUS” _sweep_ “JULIUS” _sweep_ “CAESAR!” _flourish_. I hope so. I hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/32 "2015-01-27T09:19:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was a story about Caesar, Anthony, and Brutus. Pullo and Vorenus may have been real people but they were not the central characters in the founding of the Roman Empire. > > Now that’s fine if they were going for a _Mrs Miniver_ approach and showing how major historical events appeared to a “man on the street”. But Rome wasn’t doing that. They were showing all the main historical events from the top - but they brought in two common people. If you’re telling Caesar’s story then Caesar is your obvious focus not the guy who happened to be standing fifty feet away from Caesar. But that’s the interesting part ! It’s easy, and boring, to examine the reactions and sentiments about Caesar, and the triumvirate, and yadda yadda strictly going by the elites of the day. That’s pretty much what historians have for material - elites opining or criticizing this or that move, whether through lawsuits or biographies or “fair and balanced” reporting. The man-on-the-street view of events is rarely portrayed however, and that’s a critical flaw because while the _vulgum pecus_ of Rome was hardly ever consulted or listened to, nor directly influenced events or decisions ; their approbation was sought for all the same - as they said in _Gladiator_, “Rome \*is \*the mob”. One of Caesar’s defining characteristics was that he was very adept at playing the crowds in every aspect of his life - be it gaining the love of his troops by acting like he was just another grunt, or distracting the mob with bread and circuses, or subverting the institutions of the Republic while still ostensibly restoring or defending them, or his various edgings towards kingship. One ploy that I wish had been in the series was very clever : he once gave a speech on the forum, and had somebody (I think it was Mark Anthony ?) try to crown him at the end, just to gauge the people’s reaction. When the crowd immediately started boo-ing, he played it like “WTF ? Why would you do such a silly thing ?! That’s not what I’m about at all !” to his flunkie. And so the crowd loved him _even_ _more_. So how are you going to show that, if you have no eyes in the crowd ? I thought it was very clever to show \*both \*sides of the coin - the elites speechifying and playing at politics like it’s the very crux of existence, thus being all dysfunctional ; and the proles for whom politics is something that happens in the background scenery of their lives, but whose lives and decisions are still very much shaped and directed by it, albeit unwittingly. I’ll admit that Pullo being the real father of Cesarion was a bit much though. But Pullo is such a fantastic character that who cares ? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/33 "2015-01-27T13:36:18Z")
I agree that the involvement of the commoners in those historical events got a little unbelievable, but I didn’t mind at all because it was so much more interesting seeing common life as well as the lives of the rich. The show was called “Rome” and was meant to be about the whole of Rome, I think, not just a televisual reenactment of historical events. It worked incredibly well in that respect. Also, I loved the music, the sets, the acting, everything about the entire show. Except the secnd Octavian who was just a little too believable as a terrifying sociopath. And I don’t think the popular historians’ view of Octavian is that he was particularly evil as emperors go; ruthless, yes, psychotic, no. Though that’s partly because he had some serious competition in the evil emperor stakes. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/34 "2015-01-27T14:50:46Z")
Favorite line of the series is Antony of Servilia: “Now _that_ is an exit.” ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/35 "2015-01-27T15:06:47Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Favorite line of the series is Antony of Servilia: > > “Now _that_ is an exit.” My favorite: Where is Mark Antony? A deep question. (pause) His corporeal form is in the throne room. -Posca ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/36 "2015-01-27T15:11:54Z")
I was glad that Posca and his wife had an unexpectedly happy ending of sorts (they apparently found they liked each other, got back to Rome, got money from Octavian, and were on the winning side again). ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/37 "2015-01-27T15:19:35Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Favorite line of the series is Antony of Servilia: > > “Now _that_ is an exit.” This was possibly the most bad-ass moment in a series full of bad-ass moments. Servilia publicly cursing Atia then sacrificing herself to seal the deal, followed by her personal slave sacrificing _herself_ with the self same dagger. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/38 "2015-01-27T15:22:33Z")
Recognizing that it wasn’t meant to be completely factually accurate, I liked the historical aspects of the show. There was a scene in which we saw Caesar returning to Rome. At one point, Pullo is lying wounded in a carriage as they cross a small brook. A small boy who is fishing observes them. This is the scene in which Caesar literally crossed the Rubicon. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/39 "2015-01-27T15:27:55Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > This was possibly the most bad-ass moment in a series full of bad-ass moments. Servilia publicly cursing Atia then sacrificing herself to seal the deal, followed by her personal slave sacrificing _herself_ with the self same dagger. After spending days chanting “Atia of the Julii come out… Atia of the Julii come out…”. ---
**Author:** ![Eddie\_F](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@Eddie\_F](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eddie_F)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890/40 "2015-01-27T15:46:21Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > I loved this series, though I felt that it floundered in the second season. Not floundering like season 3 of Deadwood floundering, Not to threadshit/hijack, but neither one of these assertions is true in the slightest. In fact, even though the two series are _light years_ apart in quality (though I did and do enjoy **Rome** quite thoroughly, taken on its own terms), I would posit that season two is the superior of **Rome** ’s two seasons, as the producers being forced to streamline the story they wanted to tell so it would fit into one thirteen (THIRTEEN!) episode season damn near eliminated any of the more ponderous parts that cropped up early in the first season. Similarly, good as the first season of **Deadwood** is, both the second and, yes, the third (even accounting for the presence of Jack Langrishe and his acting troupe) season dwarf it in their brilliance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rome-thread-redux-spoilers/710890.md?page=3)