# Romney and taxes: Morally unfit to be President **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 24, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492 "2012-01-24T11:49:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/101 "2012-01-24T18:41:06Z")
Say you have $100,000 dollars. You are approached with an opportunity to invest this sum into a bee farm. Being a shrewd investor you guess that there is a 50/50 chance that you will either double your investment, or lose the entire sum. Say they raise the capital gains tax to 30%. If your investment succeeds you will recieve $70,000. If it fails you will lose $100,000. You decide the investment is not worth the risk. The bee farm is unable to hire a new bee keeper. Now say they eliminate the capital gains tax. You proceed with the investment and a new bee keeper is hired. The farm thrives and you invest more into the farm and another bee keeper is hired. Is there anything wrong with this scenario? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/102 "2012-01-24T18:41:34Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Yeah, he said it at the debate last night. And in usual Mitt fashion he managed to come of like the asshole. I’m not sure he does it - even when he’s right he makes you want to smack the smirk off his face… maybe it’s just me. 🙂 I think it’s a preppie thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/103 "2012-01-24T18:55:03Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Say you have $100,000 dollars. You are approached with an opportunity to invest this sum into a bee farm. Being a shrewd investor you guess that there is a 50/50 chance that you will either double your investment, or lose the entire sum. > > Say they raise the capital gains tax to 30%. If your investment succeeds you will recieve $70,000. If it fails you will lose $100,000. You decide the investment is not worth the risk. The bee farm is unable to hire a new bee keeper. > > Now say they eliminate the capital gains tax. You proceed with the investment and a new bee keeper is hired. The farm thrives and you invest more into the farm and another bee keeper is hired. > > Is there anything wrong with this scenario? Yes - in this scenario, you are not being punished for having $100,000. The government should take it away from you and give it to the beekeepers. It’s the only morally correct course of action. Anyone who doesn’t advocate for it is morally repellent. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/104 "2012-01-24T18:56:57Z")
Can bees make straw, or is this strawman made out of bees? If so, **Skald the Rhymer** may be able to claim copyright infringement. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/105 "2012-01-24T19:01:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Would it be safe to say that this money being taxed at 15% has already been taxed as income at some point? Would it also be accurate to say that retired persons, since they are no longer recieving an income, are taxed on their capital gains? Jesus Christ, why does this keep coming up? Let’s say you make $100,000. You pay $20,000 income tax on it. You have $80,000 left. You invest the $80,000. That $80,000 makes you another $30,000. Do you fucking honestly think the new $30,000 in income has already been taxed? The correct answer is NO. You pay tax on a total of $130,000 of income. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/106 "2012-01-24T19:05:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you think the government doesn’t force anyone to pay their taxes, try not paying and see what happens. That is exactly the way the [Founding Fathers wanted it](http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=ce270d38103a630c3181db372a25a052&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D14695192%26highlight%3Dfranklin%23post14695192&v=1&libid=1327431805966&out=http%3A%2F%2Fpress-pubs.uchicago.edu%2Ffounders%2Fdocuments%2Fv1ch16s12.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D7594685&title=Was%20Benjamin%20Franklin%20a%20socialist%3F%20-%20Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fpress-pubs.uchicago.edu%2Ffound...v1ch16s12.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13274318524773): > [@](#): > > The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People’s Money out of their Pockets, tho’ only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors’ Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell’d to pay by some Law. > > [RIGHT]_Benjamin Franklin to Robert Morris_ > 25 Dec. 1783[/RIGHT] ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/107 "2012-01-24T19:10:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Is there anything wrong with this scenario? Yes, you’re suggesting a “shrewd investor” will invest $100,000 in a business proposal that has an expected future value of $100,000. You also forgot that he can apply his $100,000 loss against future gains and reduce his future tax bill. Either way, you make money, you pay your taxes, I don’t care if you make it investing or digging ditches. Investment isn’t worth the risk? Boo hoo, maybe you should find a decent investment to put your money in. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/108 "2012-01-24T19:18:10Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > No. Social Security payments, for example, are taxed as regular income (with some disclaimers and deductions) as are disbursements from most retirement accounts. I was under the impression that money contributed to retirement accounts was done so before taxes are taken out. Anyway you answered no to my question of whether retired people pay capital gains taxes. If they invested in property they don’t pay taxes on capital gains? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/109 "2012-01-24T19:18:45Z")
If I invest $100,000 to get a college degree, and by virtue of that degree, get a job for $80,000 a year, can I claim double taxation too? My income is a direct result of investing in a college education, so taxing the proceeds of that investment is double taxation on my original investment, which was already taxed when it was earned; have I got that right? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/110 "2012-01-24T19:19:41Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Either way, you make money, you pay your taxes, I don’t care if you make it investing or digging ditches. Investment isn’t worth the risk? Boo hoo, maybe you should find a decent investment to put your money in. tell that to the unemployed bee keepers of the world. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/111 "2012-01-24T19:30:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If I invest $100,000 to get a college degree, and by virtue of that degree, get a job for $80,000 a year, can I claim double taxation too? My income is a direct result of investing in a college education, so taxing the proceeds of that investment is double taxation on my original investment, which was already taxed when it was earned; have I got that right? This could be solved by eliminating the income tax in addition to the capital gains tax. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/112 "2012-01-24T19:30:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > See post #12. This issue isn’t whether people have to send in additional checks to the IRS out of the goodness of their hearts. That’s a ridiculous, juevenile talking point invented probably by Karl Rove which has nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever. > > You cannot possibly interpret my statement about needing to raise taxes instead of cut services as talking about how republicans need to donate more to the IRS than they’re legally required to do. It’s intellectually dishonest, and a non-sequitor at best. Except I wasn’t responding to your post but the OP. Actually the title of the thread > [@](#): > > Romney and taxes: Morally unfit to be President and the idea that paying the least amount of taxes that are legally required denotes immorality. That is why I added the “because it’s the right thing to do.” ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/113 "2012-01-24T19:31:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I was under the impression that money contributed to retirement accounts was done so before taxes are taken out. > > Anyway you answered no to my question of whether retired people pay capital gains taxes. If they invested in property they don’t pay taxes on capital gains? Money is put into most retirement accounts before tax is taken out, and then when withdrawn, it is all taxed as income, even the portion that is a capital gain. Roths are an exception as the money going in is after tax and then not taxed at all on withdrawal. Retirees do pay cgt if their AGI puts them in the 25% bracket or higher (this is the same for everyone, not just retired people). ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/114 "2012-01-24T19:35:04Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Money is put into most retirement accounts before tax is taken out, and then when withdrawn, it is all taxed as income, even the portion that is a capital gain. Roths are an exception as the money going in is after tax and then not taxed at all on withdrawal. Damn that seems like a raw deal. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/115 "2012-01-24T19:37:47Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Except I wasn’t responding to your post but the OP. Actually the title of the thread > and the idea that paying the least amount of taxes that are legally required denotes immorality. That is why I added the “because it’s the right thing to do.” Yea, but the OP specifically said he wasn’t making the argument that you accuse him of making. Indeed, three of the five sentences that made up the OP were stressing this point. The weird knee-jerk to construct a strawman out of the argument the OP is _explicitly_ not making by a sizable chunk of the posters in this thread is borderline Pavlovian. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/116 "2012-01-24T19:38:53Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This could be solved by eliminating the income tax in addition to the capital gains tax. Say hi to Ron for me. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/117 "2012-01-24T19:39:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This isn’t Romney specific. The general republican idea that instead of easing up on historically low taxes for the rich, we need to bust unions and close schools and stop infrastructure projects and lay off cops is widely accepted. The theory is that 99% feed on the scraps from the table of the 1% so if you want the 99% to eat better you give the 1% more food. > [@](#): > > The whole idea of the whole current “deficit crisis” is sort of insane in and of itself. Going back to historically average take rates over the last 30 years would leave us with a big surplus. cite? I’m pretty sure that this recession would make a balanced budget almost impossible no matter how much you taxed (within reason) or how much spending you cut. However if you reverse the effects of the recession then yeah, going back to Clinton era tax rates would get us back to Clinton era surpluses. > [@](#): > > It is a valid reason to reject Romney - and it will be especially ironic how he’ll be claiming that we can’t possibly raise the top tier tax brackets, or increase capital gains tax, lest the rich all decide it’s not worth it anymore and go live in the streets as hobos, because the rich (sorry, Job Creators) are already massively overtaxed, you know, despite having the lowest taxes in over a century in the US and the lowest taxes in the developed world. But he isn’t anything special or unique in that regard. It’s a valid reason to reject the entire republican party. The argument for a long time hasn’t been that the rich will stop working. The argument has been that capital would leave. Rich people would take their ball and go home. The vast majority of American productivity isn’t because Americans work so much harder than everyone else (they do), its because our labor enjoys enormous leverage due to 70 years of capital infrastructure. Now the new capital dollars are not being as heavily invested in the USA as they used to be so we are losing produictivity to developing countries but we are starting to reach a tipping point where people are moving their investment back (oddly enough high fuel costs are helping us a bit here and the fact that the domestic Chinese and Indian consumer markets are not developing the way a lot of people thought they would. > [@](#): > > I suspect many have a hardon for returning us to an almost fuedal state in terms of the powerful crushing the powerless. Well as long as the powerless are free to accept or reject the terms being offered by the powerful then liberty has been preserved. > [@](#): > > I think a lot of the conservatives on this board realize the insanity of the current tax situation, but they’ve decided that being apologists and strictly adhering to the party line trumps that. I’ve seen quite a bit of distaste from the conservatives on thsi baord for where we have found ourselves taxwise. These conservatives are frequently more interested in shrinking government than their tax bill. Unfortunately the conservatives that vote in elections are overwhelmingly more concerned about their tax bill. > [@amarone](#): > > The carried interest loophole needs to go. It will be interesting to see how much of Romney’s income qualified for that. Not that I regard it immoral to use it. Even though I don’t agree with it, I would take advantage if I qualified. I don’t agree with mortgage deductions either, but used them. I don’t know that much about carried interest but it always seemed a bit fishy to me. A lot of people did it and the wall street rule took effect (wall street rule is shorthand for: if everybody is doing it (especially if everyone means wall street), then it must be right, bureaucrats simply don’t have the power or the will to go after bad interpretations of laws that are widely held by wall streeters). > [@Xema](#): > > Investing in wind power can yield an even lower effective tax rate, due to tax credits, etc. Are those who make that kind of investment thus morally unfit? No that is a specifically intended tax benefit. The carried interest treatment is not. > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Most Americans, regardless of political party, don’t understand how we can ask a senior citizen to pay more for her Medicare before we ask a corporate jet owner or the oil companies to give up tax breaks that other companies don’t get. How can we ask a student to pay more for college before we ask hedge fund managers to stop paying taxes at a lower rate than their secretaries? How can we slash funding for education and clean energy before we ask people like me to give up tax breaks we don’t need and didn’t ask for? " Well those seniors, students and secretaries can go get their own superPAC. > [@Shodan](#): > > So it is morally wrong to donate your money to charity, instead of hanging onto it until the government takes it by force? So your complaint is that he isn’t being forced to do what he is doing already. In what way would we force him to give money to LDS? Charity is not a proxy for taxation. > [@Jas09](#): > > As to the solution, I like the one posted (by **Martin Hyde** maybe?) in another thread. All income over $1 million (from any source) is taxed at the the top marginal rate. This is very similar to the Buffett Rule, I think, but probably even simpler. It practically IS the Buffett rule. It would never happen tho. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/118 "2012-01-24T19:42:59Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought part of the stink raised about Romney’s tax rate was because of some funny (but legal) accounting on Bain Capital’s part. From what I’d heard, Bain didn’t pay Romney directly, but rather paid into an interest-yielding trust from which Romney benefited. If they’d paid Romney directly, Romney would have had to pay the same tax rate as everyone else, but because he received the money from the interest-yielding trust, he only had to pay capital gains taxes. Is that right, or did I misread what was going on? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/119 "2012-01-24T19:43:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Damn that seems like a raw deal. Its a good deal, thats why people do it. You get to both collect interest on the money that would’ve gone to pay taxes and since most people are in a lower tax bracket after retirement, they get to pay tax on the income at a lower rate. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492/120 "2012-01-24T19:45:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do I get a thank-you for paying taxes on my income, or is that kind of groveling reserved only for the rich? You get a thank-you to the appropriate level of taxes you pay. Mind you, this thank-you and admiration that I’m advocating is just for the realm of “Did you pay your fair share?” It doesn’t mean I’m suggesting that the rich should be able to cut in front of me at the roller coaster. > [@Marley23](#): > > Liberals aren’t “the poor.” The hell they aren’t. > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > The question becomes complicated – how much are we responsible for in terms of giving back to the society that allowed us to prosper? How much of it do we attribute to wealth we’ve earned fairly, and how much luck should we redistribute back for the unlucky? How much burden is fair? Luck is the derivative of planning. Y’know, the more I study and play chess, the more I find that ending up in a fortuitous position isn’t something that players stumble into. It’s something they’ve planned before it even became obvious how it would specifically come about. The same goes for life. There is very little luck in life in the long run, genetics aside. But anyway, your question about paying it back is a question of dollars, not percentages. There’s no reason the “You earned that off of our infrastructure” should apply to the cents-_per-dollar_ argument of taxation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-and-taxes-morally-unfit-to-be-president/610492.md?page=7)