# Romney: Let's get rid of estate taxes because dodging them is too much work and too pricey **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 27, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030 "2012-09-27T15:35:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/101 "2012-09-28T11:15:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Sam Stone** , why would the business owner make it a sole proprietorship? If he trusts his kids enough to leave it to them, why not make them co-owners while he’s still alive? He could do, but making them co-owners counts as a gift. If two kids are made joint owners with pops of the hypothetical $20m business, then they have been gifted $6.67m each, with gift/estate tax consequences. Of course, when the gift of ownership is given, the father can take steps to justify a lower valuation, e.g. put restrictions on resale, as already mentioned in this thread, to minimize gift/estate tax issues. My wife and her brother are accumulating partial owership in their family business through this sort of mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/102 "2012-09-28T12:56:04Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Death taxes are reprehensible for lots of reasons, but yes, this is one of them. They are avoidable for those savvy enough to hire lawyers and accountants to dodge them. They basically end up as a special tax for the unprepared. I suppose eliminating the tax is one possibility. Or we could start randomly killing millionaires in order to catch more of them by surprise. The people who say morality has no place in economic decisions have to concede the second plan generates more revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/103 "2012-09-28T13:48:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > 1. Calling it the “death tax” is tantamount to admitting you’re not interested in an actual discussion. > 2. Repeating some politicians’ bombast in no way constitutes an argument, and Romney’s isn’t one. Rather, it endorses the OP’s characterization. > > Now, do you wish to address the morality and actual consequences of being bestowed with large, unearned windfalls or don’t you? :rolleyes: Let’s recap: I asked you what your position on this issue was and you have refused to answer. Instead you ask me what I think the death tax should be. I answered you: It should be zero. Now, while still refusing to even state what you think it should be, you are insisting that I make further arguments for you? I don’t think so. If you can’t be bothered to even state what your position on the issue is, why should I continue answering any of your questions? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/104 "2012-09-28T13:49:57Z")
> [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > Seriously? A “human right”? Would you please explain how inheritance is a human right. People have been passing down their belongings to their children long before governments even existed. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/105 "2012-09-28T13:51:25Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So **Debaser** , just to get things straight, you’re bitching and complaining on behalf of not just the 1% wealthiest people in the country, but actually you’re bitching and complaining on behalf of the wealthiest 0.6%. Wrong is wrong. It doesn’t matter how many people are impacted. Would a law imprisoning all of the red headed, left handed people the US be OK, since there are so few of them? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/106 "2012-09-28T13:54:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Good to know that right off the bat, I can take your opinion with a grain of salt. I really didn’t want to waste my time with anyone who refuses to listen to reason, unnecessarily demonizes the other side, and feigns ignorance for the sake of scoring cheap political points. If that’s your opinion, then feel free to walk away. I think calling the tax a “death tax” accurately summarizes it and why many people don’t agree with it. It doesn’t demonize anyone. I have listened to my opponents in this debate and even agreed with them at times. I certainly am not feigning ignorance to score cheap points. If you cite exactly what you mean by this I will respond in good faith. It is telling that despite outnumbering me ten to one you need to resort to this sort of insults rather than just debating honestly. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/107 "2012-09-28T14:19:51Z")
Here is the full exchange: > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I thought we were talking about the Estate Tax, you know, so that rich people cannot avoid taxes by gifting away all their possessions with no consequence yet still have de facto control over it. > [@Debaser](#): > > Whatever are you talking about? Care to state this clearly and make an argument that I can respond to rather than this throw-away line? > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I really didn’t want to waste my time with anyone who … feigns ignorance for the sake of scoring cheap political points. I think this speaks for itself. You are arguing… something. But, I have no idea what. How does the death tax prevent rich people from having de facto control over their possessions that they’ve given away with no consequence? I’m not feigning ignorance when I tell you that I have no idea what that means, and I doubt anyone else in the thread does either. Do they come back as ghosts and haunt the living? Seriously, if you want to make an argument go right ahead. But to accuse me of dishonest tactics simply because you are incoherent is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/108 "2012-09-28T14:35:55Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Wrong is wrong. It doesn’t matter how many people are impacted. > > Would a law imprisoning all of the red headed, left handed people the US be OK, since there are so few of them? Since your “principled stand” is based on a theory that only the senile are paying estate taxes, it kind of does matter how many people are impacted. The estate tax arguably is the most sensible thing we do as a society. The fact that Sam Stone argues against it by suggesting millionaires will go to Canada to die pretty much speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/109 "2012-09-28T14:38:16Z")
In fact, \*nobody \*pays estate taxes. The dead can’t, because they’re dead. The living can’t, because they haven’t received their windfalls yet. High-net-worth estates do, but they’re not people, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/110 "2012-09-28T14:51:02Z")
Collecting taxes from people who got a windfall by the virtue of their birth makes a lot of sense to me. We have to collect taxes from somebody, taking it from people who didn’t lift a finger to earn it seems as fair as anything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/111 "2012-09-28T15:03:15Z")
Technically, the executor pays the tax from the estate, after settling all of its debts but \*before \*making any distribution to heirs. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/112 "2012-09-28T16:41:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Here is the full exchange: Your arguments are silly. Continue calling them death taxes to your detriment. Taking the position of a spoiled millionaire is no way to debate, nor is attempting to characterize your opponents when obviously facts point the other way a good way to get your point across. If you ever feel like seriously debating the merits of the Estate Tax, by all means go ahead, but continue to be belligerent and it shows that you have no interest in an honest exchange of ideas. I await your apology 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mentor_and_Liar)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/113 "2012-09-28T17:01:49Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > People have been passing down their belongings to their children long before governments even existed. Prior practice of anything, including unencumbered inheritance in no way makes it a fundamental human right. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/114 "2012-09-28T17:04:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Your arguments are silly. Yours in incomprehensible. > [@](#): > > Continue calling them death taxes to your detriment. Tell that to Mitt Romney and every other person who opposes them. They will be called death taxes forever by about half the people in this country. You should get used to it. > [@](#): > > Taking the position of a spoiled millionaire is no way to debate So, just opposing death taxes makes one unsuitable even to be debated? Having the nerve to disagree with you on this issue makes one untouchable? That’s a nice open mind you’ve got there. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/115 "2012-09-28T17:08:46Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Tell that to Mitt Romney and every other person who opposes them. They will be called death taxes forever by about half the people in this country. You should get used to it. To my mind, there are certain phrases that, when used in a debate, mark the user as a complete unthinking ideologue, who has come to their conclusions not through logic and fact, but rather through a rigid philosophical position that can never be shifted though reasoning. “Death Taxes” is one such phrase. It is therefore generally unwise to engage in people who use such phrases as they are unlikely to respond to logic, reason and rational argument. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/116 "2012-09-28T17:09:38Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Tell that to Mitt Romney and every other person who opposes them. They will be called death taxes forever by about half the people in this country. You should get used to it. No, they are called death taxes by a bunch of politicians and some politically overwrought private citizens. Use of the term in debate absolutely poisons the well (though like you I have no idea what **YogSosoth** is talking about otherwise). ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/117 "2012-09-28T17:10:32Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It is therefore generally unwise to engage in people who use such phrases as they are unlikely to respond to logic, reason and rational argument. Honest question: You include Mitt Romney in this group? You realize this includes about half the voters in this country, right? All of them are unworthy of even conversing with? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/118 "2012-09-28T17:20:09Z")
Like others in this thread, I can’t take someone seriously who uses a term like “death tax”, because it shows that they are not trying to argue honestly. It is NOT the name of the tax. It’s a term popularized by Republican pollster Frank Luntz specifically to reframe the conversation and put it in as emotionally negative a light as possible. > **[Frank Luntz | Use of language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz#Use_of_language)** > > Luntz frequently tests word and phrase choices using focus groups and interviews. His stated purpose in this is the goal of causing audiences to react based on emotion: .mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 32px}.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;margin-top:0}@media(min-width:500px){.mw-parser-output .templatequotecite{padding-left:1.6em}} > [@](#): > > James L. Martin, chairman of the conservative 60 Plus Association, described Luntz’s role as being that of pollster and popularizer of the phrase “death tax”. > Martin gained an important ally in GOP pollster Frank Luntz, whose polling revealed that “death tax” sparked voter resentment in a way that “inheritance tax” and “estate tax” couldn’t match. After all, who wouldn’t be opposed to a “tax on death”? Luntz shared his findings with Republicans and included the phrase in the GOP’s Contract with America. Luntz went so far as to recommend in a memo to GOP lawmakers that they stage press conferences “at your local mortuary” to dramatize the issue. “I believe this backdrop will clearly resonate with your constituents,” he wrote. “Death is something the American people understand.” Apparently, he’s right. Spurred by Luntz, Republicans have employed the term “death tax” so aggressively that it has entered the popular lexicon. Nonpartisan venues like newspapers and magazines have begun to use it in a neutral context–a coup for abolitionists like Martin. The phrase makes no sense. You can’t tax death. What do you base the tax on? What is the value of death? It’s an estate tax. It is based on the value of an estate. Would you take me seriously if I constantly referred to it as a “spoiled rich bastards tax”, or an “undeserved inheritance tax”? (Note that I don’t think the inheritors are necessarily spoiled rich bastards, nor do I think of their inheritance as necessarily undeserved. I’m simply making a point about the use of emotionally laden terms as opposed to the actual names of things.) I wish we could have a rule against such things being used in places other than the pit, but I suppose it would be hard to define such terms. Maybe instead we could all just agree act like adults and call things by their proper names. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/119 "2012-09-28T17:24:36Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Honest question: You include Mitt Romney in this group? > > You realize this includes about half the voters in this country, right? All of them are unworthy of even conversing with? Romney? Yes, if he used the term “death tax” in a debate, I think that means that he has made up his mind, and is not willing to listen honestly to an opposing viewpoint. As a politician of course, that defines him. Politicians do not debate “honestly”, they are debating for an audience to get their spin across. And although half the country may vote Republican, I doubt very much if half the country would use that phrase in a debate. So I reject your estimate of “half”. Many certainly would - and yes, I would say that they have not come to the debate with the requisite knowledge, facts and openness to rational argument. More likely they have come to the debate armed with talking points, rationalizations and poorly constructed arguments gleaned from shallow sources such as talk radio. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/120 "2012-09-28T17:37:45Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Romney? Yes, if he used the term “death tax” in a debate, In a week, it’s likely that he will, if the subject comes up. He did use it in his official policy statement, which I’ve liked to several times in this thread. > [@](#): > > And although half the country may vote Republican, I doubt very much if half the country would use that phrase in a debate. So I reject your estimate of “half”. Sure. Maybe it’s 60%, maybe it’s 40%, but suffice it to say there is a vast number of people who dislike the tax and call it by that name. > [@](#): > > Many certainly would - and yes, I would say that they have not come to the debate with the requisite knowledge, facts and openness to rational argument. More likely they have come to the debate armed with talking points, rationalizations and poorly constructed arguments gleaned from shallow sources such as talk radio. This is very sad for you. To live in a society that is so brainwashed that legions of it’s citizens are not thinking at all based on facts and aren’t rational. You realize that it’s possible for people in good faith to just have different opinions from you, right? That it’s possible for someone to be rational and open to argument and look at the same facts as you and come to a different conclusion? Because the way that your are coming across, you genuinely don’t seem able to grasp that. I disagree with various groups of people in this country about lots of things. I think that pro-death penalty people are wrong. I think that pro-life people are wrong. I think that pro-death tax people are wrong. But I don’t think they all suffer from some sort of inability to function rationally simply for disagreeing with me or using language to frame the issues differently than me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030.md?page=7)