# Romney: Let's get rid of estate taxes because dodging them is too much work and too pricey **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 27, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030 "2012-09-27T15:35:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/141 "2012-09-28T22:26:21Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Death taxes are reprehensible . . . Strongly disagree. **The estate tax is the most fair tax there is.** To turn current GOP language around, why should children who have not been job creators be rewarded with riches they did nothing to earn? I would favor a revenue neutral estate tax increase to be offset by an income tax decrease. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/142 "2012-09-28T22:26:36Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > No. > No. > (Sorry. I just don’t know how else I should respond to this. He seems to be arguing against something other than what I said.) So you’re just going to ignore my request for a cite on your claims? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/143 "2012-09-28T22:29:07Z")
Welcome to the thread, **BigAppleBucky**. I’d like to take this opportunity to state that I disagree with your position on this issue. But I also don’t assume that you have this position because you’ve been brainwashed by liberal media. I do assume that you are rational and are influenced by facts which are true and correct. In short: Just because I disagree with you I don’t think you are ignorant, brainwashed and evil. Enjoy! ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/144 "2012-09-28T22:46:13Z")
I take comfort in the probability that we are moving in the direction of a heavy tax on inheritances, whether \*\*Debaser \*\*or **Sam Stone** likes it or not. I am sorry, however, that I probably won’t be here to see their heads exploding. I just don’t think we’re making progress THAT fast. But the offensive, palpable nonsense they’re presenting here just can’t withstand thinking minds. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/145 "2012-09-28T22:55:23Z")
A perfect society might be one that is highly capitalistic but also includes 100% inheritance tax. Each generation can earn as they are willing and capable of and leave the next generation without the baggage of entrenched wealthy families that work to subvert democracy and monopolize markets. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/146 "2012-09-28T23:57:51Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > People are going to call it what they want to call it. Trying to stop them is futile. But the name “death tax” has not been the traditional name of the inheritance tax, but made up recently by Republicans against it. I do have to admit that Republicans are good at making up scary names for non-scary things, see “death panels.” > [@](#): > > Yes. What’s factually incorrect with the name? The name “death panel” implies that it applies to all who die. It actually applies to only a tiny percentage of those who die, those leaving with a very large estate. The tax is on estates, not on death. Actually we could call it the immense estate tax, or the super-rich dead people tax with just as much accuracy if we wanted propagandistic terms from the other side. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/147 "2012-09-29T01:52:09Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So you’re just going to ignore my request for a cite on your claims? I couldn’t figure out what you wanted a cite on. That there aren’t other people like you? I never claimed that. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/148 "2012-09-29T02:50:20Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Wait, what? > > $5 million exemption? > > Why yes,[that seems correct](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/key-elements/estate/how-many.cfm) > > You mean to tell me that people are actually bitching about this? Well, if you came from a decent family you would see how burdensome this tax actually is. :rolleyes: > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I saw that site about $5 million, but I saw other that saying that amount is set by legislation that will expire at the end of this year. Unless there is some Congressional intervention, the exempted amount will revert back to 2002 levels, which is where the $1 million figure I used upthread came from. I would bet a reasonable amount of money that the exemption amount will be increased (probably to $5,000,000) during the lame duck session. > [@Honesty](#): > > Didn’t Eduardo from Facebook pull a similar maneuver? He got hit with an exit tax. > [@](#): > > In general, wealthy tend to be savers which does not contribute to the economy as much as those who spend such as the poor and middle-class. This is only true now because we have a shortfall in aggregate demand. This has not always been the case and hopefully will not always be the case in the future. > [@Debaser](#): > > At the time I wrote this I was assuming that people would be in the thread arguing for a 100% death tax. … I shouldn’t have assumed the positions of my opponents and should have responded to the actual posts of those I was debating. Since then I’ve been doing so. But in this post you seem to believe that the estate tax is confiscatory again. > [@Debaser](#): > > …It’s a question of who in our society our wealth belongs to. Who owns the results of our lifetime’s of hard work? The state? To take away after we die so our heirs can start again? Or our own families? > > That the market works to reward people and that is a powerful force for good. It’s a lot better than a government deciding who gets the wealth. To me, allowing inheritances reinforces that concept. This is gifting not earning. Market forces do not apply. > [@Yllaria](#): > > Just an estate tax that doesn’t apply to most estates. ] Well if the estate isn’t worth more than $5 million dollars, you can hardly call it an estate. Can you pass the grey poupon? > [@](#): > > Of course, I’m assuming that I’ll have to pay income tax on her accounts that are POD (Pay to beneficiaries On Death). That will feel more normal. I’m pretty sure those accounts are going to be part of her gross estate and will pass on to you at a stepped up basis but I am not a trusts and estates lawyer. > [@Chronos](#): > > The part I don’t get is the complaints about it being “double taxation”. It not that money doesn’t get taxed as it filters through the economy and changes hands, its that it gets taxed in the same hands twice. Its like the sales tax. You are effectively gettig tax on money you already paid an income tax on. Its a fucking moral outrage, jesus wept. > [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > Seriously? A “human right”? Would you please explain how inheritance is a human right. When people talk about human rights, they are frequently talking about "natural law and taxes have little to nothing to do with natural laws. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In Canada, we don’t have an estate tax. Instead, the inheritors of the estate pay income tax on the money at their current tax rate (with lots of exemptions for the first X amount, a family home, etc). Since the top marginal rate in Canada is 29%, it would seem that if the American estate tax goes to 55%, Canada will have a significant advantage. Fine with me. Millionaires and their businesses are welcome here. We have an exit tax on anyone expatriating. You are deemed to sell all your assets at fair market value. My understanding was that Canada had something like this at death. Your estate gets marked to market. The reason I know this is because after we implemented the mark to market exit tax, lawyers here have borrowed a lot of Canadian estate tax techniques to minimize exit taxes. Do you guys have a $5 million dollar exemption? I’m pretty sure you don’t > [@](#): > > Our system seems superior anyway, because it puts the responsibility for the payment on the recipients, rather than having to hire lawyers to administer an estate. I’m pretty sure thats not how your system works. > [@](#): > > Also, it acts as an incentive for wealthy people to leave more of their money to the poorest family members or to charity. Give your money to a tax-exempt organization, and no tax is collected at all. A LOT of wealthy Canadians donate their estates to schools, parks, museums, etc. Once again, I’m pretty sure thats not how your system works, I don’t think beneficiaries pay taxes. I don’t know why Canadians give away so much money when they die, maybe they are better people than we are or maybe they hate their kids. > [@](#): > > consider the effect on sole proprietorships. Almost doesn’t ecist in the US. Txicab drivers incorporate, hot dog stands incorporate. > [@](#): > > Not being all that familiar with American estate tax law, let me ask: Is this a possible scenario? Probably not. There are provisions specifically intended to avoid this outcome for small businesses. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You don’t have a right to an inheritance, but the owner of the estate has a right to own property, which gives him the right to dispose of it as he wishes. The right to own property is one of the most fundamental rights you can have, because without it you are at the mercy of the state. I don’t think any one is talking about a confiscatory tax rate. We are talking about 35% (55% at the most). > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I didn’t say the business was incorporated. Most small businesses are not incorporated. Thats not true in the USA. Liability issues drive almost all small businesses to incorporate. > [@](#): > > And yes, given years of planning and lots of time and foresight, I’m sure the business could be structured so that the kids are owners by the time the parent dies, avoiding the estate tax. But the fact is, people die unexpectedly. Maybe the owner was planning to transfer the business to the kids as you say when he retired, then dies of a heart attack at age 50 before all those plans are in place. Planning should be done when you have welath, not just when you get old. Mark Zuckerberg is young and healthy. I bet he engages in estate planning. > [@Debaser](#): > > People have been passing down their belongings to their children long before governments even existed. Before governments existed, your belongings went to the strongest guy who wanted any of your stuff. Our property laws derive from old english feudal laws under which much of your estate (if you were a wealthy noble) reverted to the crown when you died, your kids paid feudal relief and the crown let them keep your stuff. [Feudal relief - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudal_relief) Your view of history and the historic immunity of estates from taxation seems a little off. > [@Debaser](#): > > I think calling the tax a “death tax” accurately summarizes it and why many people don’t agree with it. It doesn’t demonize anyone. Calling the estate tax a death tax is wrong because it is levied on less than 1% of people who die. The reason we use the term death tax is to trick people into thinking it has broader reach than it actually has. > [@Debaser](#): > > Tell that to Mitt Romney and every other person who opposes them. They will be called death taxes forever by about half the people in this country. You should get used to it. Thats because most of them are ignorant of the facts. > [@](#): > > So, just opposing death taxes makes one unsuitable even to be debated? Having the nerve to disagree with you on this issue makes one untouchable? That’s a nice open mind you’ve got there. No but using the term death tax does. It means you are either ignorant or have very little regard for the truth. > [@Debaser](#): > > You realize this includes about half the voters in this country, right? All of them are unworthy of even conversing with? On this topic, yes, most of the time. The only time I do is when someone starts spreading misinformation (usually out of ignorance). I try to do it in a way that is not embarassing but sometimes they double down and at some point they cite an AM radio show and everyone just nods their head and walks away. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I take comfort in the probability that we are moving in the direction of a heavy tax on inheritances We probably aren’t > [@](#): > > I am sorry, however, that I probably won’t be here to see their heads exploding. I just don’t think we’re making progress THAT fast. But the offensive, palpable nonsense they’re presenting here just can’t withstand thinking minds. It has for centuries, why would it stop now. I think when we get tax reform it is going to look a lot like something you don’t like (lower rates, broader base and a national sales tax kicker) but if you look deeper you will probably see a lot of closed loopholes and a reduction of the capital gains rate preference. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/149 "2012-09-29T03:10:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > People have been passing down their belongings to their children long before governments even existed. People have been pissing in their trousers for even longer than that. Doesn’t make it a “human right.” ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/150 "2012-09-29T07:18:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is gifting not earning. Market forces do not apply. Anything increasing private concentrations of power is the result of the market. Anything where the majority of citizens make a decision is looting. > [@](#): > > Before governments existed, your belongings went to the strongest guy who wanted any of your stuff. Actually, I should have addressed this too: in _Mutual Aid_ Krotopkin briefly lays out evidence that the family is a fairly modern integument and prior to that people formed clans. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/151 "2012-09-29T12:03:26Z")
Strange how the standard conservative response to programs helping the poor and working class (welfare, ADC, health care reform, etc) is “We have to stop coddling them. They should have planned ahead/worked harder/taken personal responsibility” while the response to hypothetical\* multi-millionaire small business owners who did not bother with estate planning is to wail about the horrible injustice of it all. \*Extremely hypothetical, since, as noted elsewhere in this thread, the ‘death tax’ opponents have yet to produce anyone who lost their family farm or business because of the estate tax despite plenty of looking for a poster boy. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/152 "2012-09-29T14:08:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m pretty sure thats [taxes paid by the recipient] not how your [Canadian] system works. Correct. The Canadian inheritance tax was repealed in 1987. Canada has no estate tax per se, but in the year of death all capital gains are calculated on a mark-to-market basis and treated as capital gains for the decedent in the year of death. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030/153 "2012-09-29T19:10:02Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Anything increasing private concentrations of power is the result of the market. Anything where the majority of citizens make a decision is looting. I don’t really think thats what they are trying to say. I think they are saying, "everything I earn is mine and noone else has a claim to any of it. > [@](#): > > Actually, I should have addressed this too: in _Mutual Aid_ Krotopkin briefly lays out evidence that the family is a fairly modern integument and prior to that people formed clans. Our concept of property rights is a fairly modern concept. A concept that requires a stable society to implement. Without society, there are no property rights beyond your ability to keep anyone from taking your stuff. There is a lot of hand wringing on the right that basically amounts to a condemnation of ALL taxes. Sure, taxes distort economic behaviour and we have to weigh that distortion against what good we do with the. Are we spending the money to feed parasitic babies who leech off the system or are we using the money to nobly invade a country that never attacked us? It all depends on how we spend the money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-lets-get-rid-of-estate-taxes-because-dodging-them-is-too-much-work-and-too-pricey/636030.md?page=7)