Romney makes appeal to Americans disillusioned with Obama

[elucidator]

I admire the precision, though, packing all that wrong into a very few words.

[moonshot925]

@Trinopus

When you give tax breaks to rich folks, they spend money on yachts, golf courses, wine cellars, and art collectibles.

When you give tax breaks to poor folks, they buy groceries, gasoline, medications, and pay rents.

Guess which class of spending actually benefits the economy? (Hint: how many yacht repairmen do you know?)

That is why Romney’s plan will cut individual income tax rates across the board by 20% while eliminating capital gains, dividend and interest taxes for those making less than $200,000 a year.

It is more of a tax cut for the middle and lower classes than it is for the rich.

[Enkel]

@moonshot925

That is why we need more tax cuts which is what Romney is proposing. Consumers will have more money spend which will get the economy moving. A healthy and growing economy will produce more government revenue which will reduce the deficit.

Here is my argument for why that means we need to have MORE TAXES on income above $250k; treat all capital gains over $250k/year as regular income; and tax all inheritance above $250K as regular income.

Taxes are spent within the year of collection. The dollars collected are paid back out into the US economy in the form of salaries and services that are then spent in the local economies.

OTOH - Investments in today’s day-and-age typically pull the dollars out of the US Economy (e.g. traded for stock certificates, used to leverage against oil futures, etc). When those dollars not pulled in as taxes are tied up like that, they do NOTHING to produce jobs or demand. I don’t care if you want to buy 30% of all GE stock, that transaction will not produce a single job, but it will tie up billions of dollars from the economy.

Capital Gains are only taxed on the increased amount (not the base investment amount) and only when the investment is liquidated, so the $250k/year ‘fee pass’ would protect those who are taking funds out of their retirement accounts or selling a property that has appreciated.

Owners of businesses or farms can easily pass their operations to active decedents in a way that they will not ‘inherit’ them. If the decedents are not active in the business or property, then they can either liquidate it (which a lot do anyway just to get the funds) or leverage it to pay any taxes if they want to keep it. I’m really tired of hearing all the cry baby stories about how kids ‘have to sell the farm’ when they were never active in it and they have it up on the auction block as soon as probate clears because they never intended to work the farm anyway. As for the birth canal lottery winners (*), all I can say is well boo hoo.

(*) I read that term somewhere today or yesterday and it really is a good description.

[etv78]

How many people who make less than $200k have capital gains or dividends? :rolleyes:

[elucidator]

Doesn’t matter, they are both voting for Romney already…

[Enkel]

@moonshot925

That is why Romney’s plan will cut individual income tax rates across the board by 20% while eliminating capital gains, dividend and interest taxes for those making less than $200,000 a year.

It is more of a tax cut for the middle and lower classes than it is for the rich.

I’m not following this. Can you point to Romney’s proposed tax policy and someone who’d evaluated it and come to this conclusion?

[moonshot925]

@The_Niply_Elder

I think you should get your terminology straight. A tax cut that increases government revenues is an oxymoron by definition. Think about it.

The JFK and Reagan tax cuts led to massive increases in revenue.

@The_Niply_Elder

Ok now that you thought about it, let me inform you that a big drop in government tax rates tends to cause inflation

Tax cuts do not cause inflation. Money that was previously spent by the government will be spent by the taxpayer. People may spend their money differently than the government would spend it. This would result in a change in relative prices, but no extra money should be spent. Tax cuts only become inflationary, if the government continues to spend the money that it no longer receives in taxes.

[moonshot925]

@Enkel

I’m not following this. Can you point to Romney’s proposed tax policy and someone who’d evaluated it and come to this conclusion?

Here is his tax plan

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/tax

Individual Taxes:

•Make permanent, across-the-board 20 percent cut in marginal rates
•Maintain current tax rates on interest, dividends, and capital gains
•Eliminate taxes for taxpayers with AGI below $200,000 on interest, dividends, and capital gains
•Eliminate the Death Tax
•Repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

Corporate Taxes:

•Cut the corporate rate to 25 percent
•Strengthen and make permanent the R&D tax credit
•Switch to a territorial tax system
•Repeal the corporate Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)

[Enkel]

@moonshot925

Reagan tax cuts led to massive increases in revenue.

The argument that the near-doubling of revenues during Reagan’s two terms proves the value of tax cuts is an old argument. It’s also extremely flawed. At 99.6 percent, revenues did nearly double during the 80s. However, they had likewise doubled during EVERY SINGLE DECADE SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION! They went up 502.4% during the 40’s, 134.5% during the 50’s, 108.5% during the 60’s, and 168.2% during the 70’s. At 96.2 percent, they nearly doubled in the 90s as well. Hence, claiming that the Reagan tax cuts caused the doubling of revenues is like a rooster claiming credit for the dawn.

Effect of the Reagan, Kennedy, Bush, and Trump Tax Cuts

But, I personally would be happy to return to Regan’s tax rates if that is what you’d like.

[Robot_Arm]

@moonshot925

But President Obama and his Keynesian policies have failed to get the economy back on track.

The unemployment rate is over 8% and economic growth is slow at 1.5%. The CBO says there could be a recession early next year.

As I understand it, the CBO is constrained to make its predictions based on laws that are currently in effect. At the moment, that includes the expiration of all the Bush tax cuts. The Democrats would like to extend some of them, the Republicans are threatening to hold that up unless all the cuts are extended. (A puzzling strategy, to say the least.) It’s widely expected that some extension will happen, but the CBO can’t take it into account until it does.

@moonshot925

That is why we need more tax cuts which is what Romney is proposing. Consumers will have more money spend which will get the economy moving. A healthy and growing economy will produce more government revenue which will reduce the deficit.

Am I the only one hearing that in Bullwinkle’s voice? “This time for sure!”

[elucidator]

This plan is for people disillusioned with Obama but with abiding faith in the Easter Bunny.

[BlankSlate]

I didn’t watch the speech…I had We Won’t Get Fooled Again by The Who cranked up too loud to hear it.

So Mitt has a PLAN, does he? Any specifics? If its such a great PLAN, is there some reason he hasn’t been shouting it from the rooftops these past four years?

Tax cuts, you say? Seriously, tax cuts? How many fucking “tax cuts” have we had in the last ten years? It’s supposed to revive the economy? Deficit spending? Again? No, Romney laid out all the painful spending cuts that need to be made. Right? Right?

Bull. Shit. But the voters in this country are so fucking stupid they’ll buy this crap again.

[WillFarnaby]

He also suggested he would attack Iran. This would send energy prices soaring and kill any hope of recovery. He managed to tough talk Vladamir Putin of all people. Also he said those that “cheat” on trade agreements will face “unmistakable consequences”. A veiled threat at China, no doubt, considering his rhetoric in the past that mirrored this sentiment. Don’t worry the US “will preserve a military that’s so strong no nation will ever dare to test it.” I do not see how a sensible person can vote for this nutjob. These are legitimately dangerous ideas.

[moonshot925]

@etv78

How many people who make less than $200k have capital gains or dividends? :rolleyes:

Lots.

Middle class families often invest in securities or build small businesses in order to pay for a large expense like retirement, or a child’s education, or the purchase of a home.

[Enkel]

@moonshot925

Here is his tax plan

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/tax

The Tax Policy Center of the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution evaluation: ( http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001628-Base-Broadening-Tax-Reform.pdf (pdf))

Our major conclusion is that a revenue-neutral individual income tax change that incorporates the features Governor Romney has proposed – including reducing marginal tax rates substantially, eliminating the individual alternative minimum tax (AMT) and maintaining all tax breaks for saving and investment – would provide large tax cuts to high-income households, and increase the tax burdens on middle- and/or lower-income taxpayers. This is true even when we bias our assumptions about which and whose tax expenditures are reduced to make the resulting tax system as progressive as possible. For instance, even when we assume that tax breaks – like the charitable deduction, mortgage interest deduction, and the exclusion for health insurance – are completely eliminated for higher-income households first, and only then reduced as necessary for other households to achieve overall revenue-neutrality– the net effect of the plan would be a tax cut for high-income households coupled with a tax increase for middle-income households.

Bloomberg discussing it: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-03/romney-s-worst-tax-secret.html

Obama has an ad on the air using TPC’s numbers to say the Romney plan will raise taxes by as much as $2,000 on middle class families, while cutting taxes for the rich. Romney says that’s false – he says he won’t raise taxes on middle income people or lower the share paid by high-income folks.

The problem with Romney’s claim is that TPC could find no way to make those numbers pencil. Romney has promised to cut earned income tax rates by 20 percent across the board, and also to eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax. Even if you eliminate every non-investment tax preference enjoyed by wealthy people, that still leaves them with a tax cut. (Romney has pledged to preserve tax preferences for investment.)

[…]

If Romney thinks TPC missed something, and he has a way to make his plan work without a middle class tax increase, he should release the details that show what that is. So long as he refuses to tell us exactly what his tax plan is, Romney has no one to blame for distortions of the plan but himself.

[BlankSlate]

BTW, I hope people understand the purpose of tax cuts. Tax cuts are something a president champions in his first term in order to get elected to a second. That’s where Bush I fucked up: he should have kept his honest mouth shut until after the election.

If you want to cut taxes but you don’t have a commensurate plan to cut spending, you are immoral and a coward. The “starve the beast” strategy is something dreamed up by cowardly, irresponsible little pussies. It definitely ain’t leadership.

[Enkel]

@WillFarnaby

He managed to tough talk Vladamir Putin of all people.

You know what is sad. I actually like Vladamir Putin (as a human) better than Romney. And, I think if Romney tried to show Putin his ‘backbone’, Putin would hand Romney his arse pretty quick.

[eschereal]

from the site moonshot925 links,

With 54 percent of private sector workers employed outside of corporations, individual rates also define the incentives for job-creating businesses.

What does that mean? How do employees’ tax rates affect business decisions, apart, perhaps, from fostering consumption? Is the double-talk?

[Robot_Arm]

@WillFarnaby

He also suggested he would attack Iran.

Republicans insist that all options, up to and including nuclear weapons, remain “on the table” in our dealings with Iran. But they will sign a pledge to never raise taxes.

[etv78]

@moonshot925

Lots.

Middle class families often invest in securities or build small businesses in order to pay for a large expense like retirement, or a child’s education, or the purchase of a home.

Cite?