# Romney’s tax returns—just the break the Obama camp was waiting for? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 18, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913 "2012-01-18T17:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/21 "2012-01-18T20:24:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The other interesting thing was that Romney said he made a trifling amount, $370,000 or so, from speaking tours. That is enough to put him in the 1% according to the article I saw. Yeesh. Referring to that amount as “not very much” doesn’t help with the out-of-touch perception. I’d certainly be happy to make “not very much”, if that’s the case. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/22 "2012-01-18T20:49:55Z")
How does Romney get out of paying AMT? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/23 "2012-01-18T20:51:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is he? Don’t you have to be an active hedge fund manager to do that? I think most of his income is plain ol’ dividends. You may be right. The WSJ post I was referring to was merely speculating as to whether his continued compensation from Bain was treated as carried interest or ordinary income. That is clearly something that won’t be clarified until the full return is released. A quick [cite](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/private-equity-carried-interest-and-mitt-romney-2012-01-18): > [@](#): > > There is no question he has benefited and perhaps continues to benefit from the favorable tax treatment of the carried-interest provisions. As he retained a share of the “profits interest” after he left Bain Capital, Romney would have gotten favorable tax treatment on certain income received even though his service labor did not contribute to the profits of new investments by the firm. To what magnitude this lessens his tax burdens is not known, as Romney has not released his tax returns. You will note that he refers only to speaking fees (the “not very much” $340k) as ordinary income and classifies the rest as investment income. Since we know he still makes quite a bit from Bain it seems hard to square that with an overall 15% rate unless he makes a truly staggering amount from investments (which is, of course, possible). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/24 "2012-01-18T20:57:13Z")
If he uses the carried interest option, this is _really, really, really_ bad. His only hope would be that it’s too complicated to understand. But I don’t think that’s much to pin one’s hope on. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/25 "2012-01-18T21:19:13Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If the Obama administration doesn’t rebrand this as the “Romney loophole” or the “Romney tax rate” then they have learned nothing from the Republicans. Abso-f\*\*\*ing-lutely. I think Obama will be smart enough to use Romney as a case study for how the 1% really pay their “fair share”. Not only does it damage Romney, but it allows him to use wealth-inequality as a campaign issue in a way that doesn’t get him tarred a socialist or scare off wealthy donors (well, not as much at least). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/26 "2012-01-18T21:29:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > His position on the issue should be an issue, but as it is, he’s just paying what he owes, like all of us. He is, in fact, in favor of even lower rates on dividends and such, but only for people who make much less than he does. His position on taxes starts to look like it might be the product of his perspective. The thing about lower tax rates for investment income is that it does not apply to most people. The vast majority of most people’s investments are in tax advantaged things like IRAs, Roth IRAs, 401Ks, 529s, primary homes, etc. People who make 100K/year have about 1K in capital gains. Its really not much of a break. People who make 500K/year have about 50K in capital gains. It gets more substantial but it doesn’t makea huge difference to them. People who make over 5 million/year make about 50% of their money in capital gains. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/27 "2012-01-18T21:31:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The feeling that the rich should be paying more in taxes cuts across party lines, and that’s when you address marginal rates. The fact that some very rich pay a lower tax rate than working stiffs can get plenty of Republicans riles up, not to mention the independents-- you know, the ones who will probably decide this election. > > I agree he needs to time this right. Now would be wrong. Between now and April will be wrong. Sometime well after April, but well before November would be the way to go. Juy, maybe, or during the slow news month of August. He wants to do it well before or after April when people have their effective rate fresh in their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/28 "2012-01-18T21:33:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is he? Don’t you have to be an active hedge fund manager to do that? I think most of his income is plain ol’ dividends. I’m pretty sure he is getting most of his money from Bain Capital and thats largely carried interest. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/29 "2012-01-18T21:39:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How does Romney get out of paying AMT? Capital gains is above the line. It is not an AMT preference item. Not everything gets baked back into income when determining AMT. There is acorporate AMT too but I don’t think Corporations ever pay it. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he uses the carried interest option, this is _really, really, really_ bad. His only hope would be that it’s too complicated to understand. But I don’t think that’s much to pin one’s hope on. I don’t see why he wouldn’t be earning based on carried interest. > [@CJJ](#): > > Abso-f\*\*\*ing-lutely. I think Obama will be smart enough to use Romney as a case study for how the 1% really pay their “fair share”. Not only does it damage Romney, but it allows him to use wealth-inequality as a campaign issue in a way that doesn’t get him tarred a socialist or scare off wealthy donors (well, not as much at least). The thing that the welathy donors had a problem with was not his attempts to get rid of the carried interest exception. The thing that flipped them over the top was when his administration proposed that you mgiht also have to pay ordinary income tax rates when you sell your hedge fund to a larger hedge fund. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/30 "2012-01-18T21:43:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If he uses the carried interest option, this is _really, really, really_ bad. His only hope would be that it’s too complicated to understand. But I don’t think that’s much to pin one’s hope on. Given that people in general and conservatives in particular tend to fear what they don’t understand? Yeah, I don’t think trying to make it incomprehensible is going to help him much. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/31 "2012-01-18T21:43:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m pretty sure he is getting most of his money from Bain Capital and thats largely carried interest. Is he still a partner or a fund manager? If not, he can’t be doing it. He may be getting dividends as an investor, but that’s not carried interest. Carried interest is way of treating what would be ordinary income is long term capital gains. But you can’t be getting ordinary income if you’re not on salary. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/32 "2012-01-18T21:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **John Mace** : > The feeling that the rich should be paying more in taxes cuts across party lines, and that’s when you address marginal rates. The fact that some very rich pay a lower tax rate than working stiffs can get plenty of Republicans riles up, not to mention the independents-- you know, the ones who will probably decide this election. Among the people, maybe, but not the party itself. Republican politicians are quite consistent in saying that the rich already pay too much. If this gets Republicans riled up, they’ll be riled up against their own party. > [@](#): > > If he uses the carried interest option, this is really, really, really bad. His only hope would be that it’s too complicated to understand. But I don’t think that’s much to pin one’s hope on. If it’s too complicated to understand, then that just makes things worse for him. That changes the story from “He uses this option and this process, and his income is this type, and if you did the same thing you’d pay low tax, too” to “He uses some magic mumbo-jumbo that real people can’t use to weasel out of paying his fair share like we do”. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/33 "2012-01-18T22:48:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is he still a partner or a fund manager? If not, he can’t be doing it. He may be getting dividends as an investor, but that’s not carried interest. Carried interest is way of treating what would be ordinary income is long term capital gains. But you can’t be getting ordinary income if you’re not on salary. According to [here](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/private-equity-carried-interest-and-mitt-romney-2012-01-18). > [@](#): > > So how does Mitt Romney fit in to all of this? > > There is no question he has benefited and perhaps continues to benefit from the favorable tax treatment of the carried-interest provisions. As he retained a share of the “profits interest” after he left Bain Capital, Romney would have gotten favorable tax treatment on certain income received even though his service labor did not contribute to the profits of new investments by the firm. To what magnitude this lessens his tax burdens is not known, as Romney has not released his tax returns ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/34 "2012-01-18T23:12:35Z")
I can see where he probably did in the past, but even that cite says “perhaps” he continues to do so. It also implies that even if he does get this benefit, it’s only a part of his compensation. Anyway, I guess we’ll see when (if?) he releases his tax returns. Maybe there’s less downside for him to keep them private. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/35 "2012-01-19T00:01:42Z")
Seeing as how he’s only considering releasing this last years tax return, can you imagine the frantic calls he’s making to his accountants right now- “Make sure you figure my taxes to have me paying as much as possible this year!!!” I bet his accountants don’t get many calls like that. I would love to see how his possibly-to-be-released upcoming tax return compares to previous years. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/36 "2012-01-19T00:09:58Z")
mn ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/37 "2012-01-19T00:33:49Z")
My favorite part of this is the whole “if its tradition…” This guy has been planning on running for president for a decade - maybe longer. He’s so damn prepared for running for president that he should get an honorary PhD for all the prep work he’s done. And THIS blindsides him. For the record, I will not run for president. I don’t want people to dig through my medical history, my tax records, my job record, or talk to old boyfriends (or, God forbid - find my ex husband which would immediately disqualify me on the grounds of past insanity). I don’t want it to be public knowledge if my children are promiscuous or have gotten drunk underage. I don’t need people to know how much I give to my church or the rape crisis line. If I were to decide to run for president, I would expect all those details to become public. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/38 "2012-01-19T00:38:04Z")
Somehow, **Dangerosa** , your signature just makes that post perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/39 "2012-01-19T00:43:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Somehow, **Dangerosa** , your signature just makes that post perfect. Also on the God forbid line - having to disclose my message board history, my Tweets where I misspell “milk” when asking my husband to stop by the store, and the Facebook pictures helpfully posted and tagged by my friends where I know I wasn’t THAT drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/40 "2012-01-19T01:13:27Z")
[So far, this is not going well for Romney.](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/18/v-print/2596191/romney-tries-to-sidestep-tax-furor.html) > [@](#): > > Facing a new controversy, his campaign confirmed that Romney has money invested in the Cayman Islands but said he was not getting any tax break. > > […] > > Romney’s campaign was confronted with new questions about his finances Wednesday when ABC News reported that Romney has millions of dollars of personal wealth in investment funds set up in the Cayman Islands, known as a tax haven for Americans. The report said that Romney had the ability to pay a lower tax rate by investing in funds located offshore. > > A spokeswoman for Romney’s campaign confirmed that the Romneys have money in the Caymans. But the campaign did not say why. Spokeswoman Andrea Saul also said: “ABC is flat wrong. The Romneys’ investments in funds established in the Cayman Islands are taxed in the very same way they would be if those funds were established in the United States. These are not tax havens and it is false to say so.” > > […] > > New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, who has endorsed Romney, sought to help by defending Romney’s tax status on TV. But that may have backfired when Christie, on NBC’s “Today” show, suggested Romney put out his tax returns “sooner rather than later.” > > “It’s always better in my view to have complete disclosure, especially when you’re the front-runner,” Christie said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913.md?page=3)