# Romney’s tax returns—just the break the Obama camp was waiting for? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 18, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913 "2012-01-18T17:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/61 "2012-01-19T05:08:45Z")
> [@mack](#): > > Romneyfare! Quick, send that one to the DNC! ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/62 "2012-01-19T05:48:21Z")
I have read some commentary suggesting that the tax story will be old news by November and Romney would have gotten it out of the way. That is not how these thing work. If a negative story feeds into the central narrative about a candidate it doesn’t just go way, it becomes a running sore that becomes worse over time. This tax story fits perfectly into the emerging narrative about Romney as a fat cat who lives in a completely different economic universe from the average American. It’s true that many Presidential candidates including Obama are rich. However: 1)Romney is vastly richer than anyone else who has run recently 2)His manner of gaining wealth has itself become controversial even in a Republican primary 3)He continuously makes gaffes, like the 10,000 bet, which draw attention to how rich he is The tax issue just makes all this worse. Romney probably pays a lower effective tax rate than many middle-class Americans. Furthermore his tax plan will make big cuts which will benefit himself enormously. Obama by contrast is a rich guy who wants to raise his own taxes to close the deficit. I am not saying Romney is doomed or anything but he does have a lot of baggage which the Democrats are going to exploit to the hilt. I expect Obama to stay above the fray for the most part but his surrogates and Democratic PAC’s are going to pound Romney week after week and it will hurt him. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/63 "2012-01-19T05:51:14Z")
Right - the question here isn’t really whether anyone is scandalized by Romney’s tax rate, it’s whether or not this catches on and has a significant effect on how people see him. In combination with talking about $374,000 like it’s not a lot of money and the possible tax shelters issue, it’s probably not going to help. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/64 "2012-01-19T06:09:17Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > One thing I’m looking forward to in the general election is watching evangelicals kneel down and lick the boots of a Mormon. The other is watching rural middle-class voters happily swallow the line “Yeah, it’s true people like me have a tax rate that is 10 percentage points lower than yours. But don’t you think it should really be 15 points lower, because of the creating jobs and stuff?” A guy whose opinions are all over the place. [http://www.redstate.com/erick/files/2011/10/FLIPFLOPS.pdf](http://www.redstate.com/erick/files/2011/10/FLIPFLOPS.pdf) this will be an amusing election cycle. I agree with other posters, Romney has really prepared himself for running for president. Even in 2008 when McCain had it locked up I assumed he was just staying in the race to build his name recognition for when he ran again in 2012. And it worked, that was his strategy and he was more or less coronated the nominee this time around due to his 2008 run (some comparisons to his 2008-2012 run were the Reagan runs in 1976-1980. But this tax issue seemed to blindside him, he stuttered a lot when asked about it at the last debate. How could he not see that coming? Also I’m sure he is only releasing his 2011 tax info (if he releases any, he is just saying he might right now) the tax info before 2011 was even worse. So what all is he hiding that he tried to clear up in 2011? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/65 "2012-01-19T06:29:08Z")
I wonder how much the presidency is worth to the super-rich? Knowing it might be a potential issue, could he have had the conversation Ca3799 referred to four years ago? It would clearly be a gamble (whether he’d make it in the primaries and whether he’d be asked), but what’s a few million here or there to a bazillionaire–especially when there’s a presidency to be had. Further down the rabbit hole (hey look, tinfoil!), he could have worked with his partners to structure income in such a way that it would not necessarily hit as largely from 2008 to 12. Partners get a share of the interest, Romney isn’t exactly hurting for liquidity, and it allows him to release the returns and say “look at that, I _am_ a regular Joe!” Clearly that’s kookie, but with the kind of money we’re talking about not wholly plausible. Mostly, perhaps, but not wholly ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/66 "2012-01-19T06:32:00Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > A guy whose opinions are all over the place. > > [http://www.redstate.com/erick/files/2011/10/FLIPFLOPS.pdf](http://www.redstate.com/erick/files/2011/10/FLIPFLOPS.pdf) > > this will be an amusing election cycle. Wow. What’s astounding about that is both the longevity of flippityflopping and how major reversals are within the past five to ten years. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/67 "2012-01-19T06:43:37Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > There’s his choice to all but declare rates to be 15 percent now but actually release them in April. Reneging on the promise will be costly by handing the Democrats a What-Is-He-Hiding commercial. Through the timing of the eventual release he’s ensuring that it will be a news-cycle event, not just an issue raised by the Obama campaign. That means it will have come up twice, keeping it alive longer than necessary. And it will be coming up in the midst of the general. He has a it’s-mine-to-lose-it lock on the primary; weathering the same storm twice and during the general seems to have no gain and all risk. > > There are other reasons, but the last one I’m mentioning is potentially the most damaging to his electoral aspirations. April. Spring. Occupy. There’s no sign that the Occupy movement is fading into yesterday’s news, and lots of reasons to think that as spring arrives (and school ends) it will reach another peak. Even if the protestors (not just students) do not rejoin the ‘occupy’ part of Occupy, they will still be charged with its underlying themes—themes that are particularly unfriendly to an astronomically wealthy candidate who paid less taxes then they did. And all this is happening as the climate gets warmer, when putting activists in the field is easier. Romney already faces an enthusiasm gap within his own party; this will both hurt that and bolster the passions of the anti-Romney/pro-Obama side of the equation. > > Aside from a hastily written OP, is there some political strategy I missed? Or is obvious OP obvious? The April release date isn’t aimed at Obama. It’s aimed at the other Republican candidates. At this point, Romney is still working on being the nominee. So by delaying his tax return releases a few months, he’s hoping he’ll have the nomination sewed up by the time he has to deal with it - that way he’ll only have Obama using it against him instead of having Gingrich, Perry, Santorum, and Paul using it against him. I’m sure this will be an issue in the general election (assuming Romney is the nominee). Surprisingly, it’s almost going to hurt Romney worse if everything he did was legal. In that case, Obama will be able to use it as a club to say that the Republicans are writing tax laws that favor the rich and make middle class families pay higher tax rates than millionaires. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/68 "2012-01-19T06:50:36Z")
I think it’s stuff like this that the Obama camp is salivating at. The GOP is thinking they will be hammering him on whatever wedge issue of the day is, but I foresee a relentless negative mudslinging campaign directed at a Romney unprepared for being on the defensive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/69 "2012-01-19T07:53:01Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I think it’s stuff like this that the Obama camp is salivating at. The GOP is thinking they will be hammering him on whatever wedge issue of the day is, but I foresee a relentless negative mudslinging campaign directed at a Romney unprepared for being on the defensive. I agree. The economy is obviously going to be a major issue. Obama will use this as an argument - _“Sure our economy has problems. You want to know where those problems come from? Look at my opponent - the problems come from people like him.”_ ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/70 "2012-01-19T12:43:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree. The economy is obviously going to be a major issue. Obama will use this as an argument - _“Sure our economy has problems. You want to know where those problems come from? Look at my opponent - the problems come from people like him.”_ Not to worry, [Bain Capital saved America!](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204555904577169032997242246.html) The guy has been running for president for six years now. And just before he sews up the nomination is the time to start vetting him? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/71 "2012-01-19T14:39:27Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Wow. What’s astounding about that is both the longevity of flippityflopping and how major reversals are within the past five to ten years. Unbelievable. Yeah, it’s a nice list, but I don’t get why favorite book and favorite movie are on there. Opinions change. People get exposed to things they haven’t been before, and decide that the new (to them) thing is better. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/72 "2012-01-19T15:12:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hey, when you make $50,000,000/year and you have to tithe, what’s a fella to do? It’s just math, dude!. Wow, I was just joking about the tithing thing, but it was reported on NPR last night that he does give at least 10% to the LDS Church. Not sure that will really hurt him. It will be worse if the LDS Church is involved in one of the Super PACs, which I assume they are smart enough not to do. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/73 "2012-01-19T15:24:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is he still a partner or a fund manager? If not, he can’t be doing it. He may be getting dividends as an investor, but that’s not carried interest. Carried interest is way of treating what would be ordinary income is long term capital gains. But you can’t be getting ordinary income if you’re not on salary. I don’t remember the exact rules to qualify for the 15% dividend tax rate but I’m pretty sure that it cannot be applied to “special dividends” that are only paid to one of the shareholders. I am also pretty sure that it can only be claimed on dividends paid by corporations that pay a corporate level tax. I doubt Bain is a corporation paying a corporate level tax but I could be wrong. Carried interest frequently throws off ordinary income and short term capital gains as well. its whatever sort of income or loss that is created within the fund. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Wow, the SDMB looks almost buffoonish here… > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t disagree that Mitt Romney’s opinion on taxes aren’t a “so what he smoked dope in college” thing. …No, in America we let everyone vote. What that means is mostly idiotic non-issues will determine who wins and who loses. That would put Romney’s tax rate at least in the running, being both idiotic and a non-issue. But it will probably pale in comparison to whether granny thinks he looks like an upstanding citizen or a used car salesman, and whether Fred thinks Obama sounds inspiring or patronizing. You probably wish you hadn’t said this. This is a central issue in this election cycle. The issue of taxes on the rich and the wealth disparity are kind of big this year. > [@Ludovic](#): > > Let’s parse this statement: > > Perhaps those funds are funds that are not required to provide yearly capital returns. So, technically they _ **ARE** _, present tense, taxed in the same way they would be in the United States, since they wouldn’t be taxed until he sells or liquidates them. However, once he sells them, they might have tax advantages galore. > > I’m not saying that’s the case, I’m just trying to think like a weasel. If you want to parse it. Romney is taxed on the income from those funds the same way any other income would be taxed but the fund itself is subject to a different set of tax rules than a fund that was set up in Boston. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > As it is, all he did that was “bad” was pay the taxes he owed. Noone is saying he did anything wrong. They are saying that this reinforces the notion that the deck is stacked heavily in favor of the ultra wealthy. Romney might be to capital gains taxes what Paris Hilton was to the Estate Tax or at the very least to carried interest. > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Followed by “PS – What’s the deadline for filing an amended return?” Usually September. A lot of people who have partnership income end up filing in September every year. BTW, if Romney manages to get away with only releasing one year’s tax return then I think he will have achieved his goal. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/74 "2012-01-19T15:27:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow, I was just joking about the tithing thing, but it was reported on NPR last night that he does give at least 10% to the LDS Church. Not sure that will really hurt him. It will be worse if the LDS Church is involved in one of the Super PACs, which I assume they are smart enough not to do. LDS probably cannot be involved in a SuperPac, I don’t think they can spend their money politcally. They can however spend money on issues. Why do I recall LDS being influential in the California gay marriage referendum? I think they do in fact get invoved in issue advocacy ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/75 "2012-01-19T15:40:27Z")
[possible GQ] What does “releasing his returns” mean? Have past presidents given the IRS authority to release the records or is it self reporting? Will we get to question the veracity of the 1040 (you know, the long form) he releases? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/76 "2012-01-19T16:03:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, it’s a nice list, but I don’t get why favorite book and favorite movie are on there. Opinions change. People get exposed to things they haven’t been before, and decide that the new (to them) thing is better. It’s the retconning that’s bad. Romney doesn’t just change his position as circumstances warrant - he also claims that whatever his current position is is the position he’s always held. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/77 "2012-01-19T16:06:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s the retconning that’s bad. Romney doesn’t just change his position as circumstances warrant - he also claims that whatever his current position is is the position he’s always held. Holy shit–he’s always been at war with Eurasia! ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/78 "2012-01-19T16:25:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > LDS probably cannot be involved in a SuperPac, I don’t think they can spend their money politcally. They can however spend money on issues. > > Why do I recall LDS being influential in the California gay marriage referendum? I think they do in fact get invoved in issue advocacy Because they were. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/79 "2012-01-19T16:26:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t remember the exact rules to qualify for the 15% dividend tax rate but I’m pretty sure that it cannot be applied to “special dividends” that are only paid to one of the shareholders. I am also pretty sure that it can only be claimed on dividends paid by corporations that pay a corporate level tax. I doubt Bain is a corporation paying a corporate level tax but I could be wrong. > > Carried interest frequently throws off ordinary income and short term capital gains as well. its whatever sort of income or loss that is created within the fund. > > You probably wish you hadn’t said this. This is a central issue in this election cycle. The issue of taxes on the rich and the wealth disparity are kind of big this year. > > If you want to parse it. Romney is taxed on the income from those funds the same way any other income would be taxed but the fund itself is subject to a different set of tax rules than a fund that was set up in Boston. > > Noone is saying he did anything wrong. They are saying that this reinforces the notion that the deck is stacked heavily in favor of the ultra wealthy. Romney might be to capital gains taxes what Paris Hilton was to the Estate Tax or at the very least to carried interest. > > Usually September. A lot of people who have partnership income end up filing in September every year. > > BTW, if Romney manages to get away with only releasing one year’s tax return then I think he will have achieved his goal. His previous returns may be his “long form birth certificate.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913/80 "2012-01-19T18:20:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > LDS probably cannot be involved in a SuperPac, I don’t think they can spend their money politcally. They can however spend money on issues. Super PACS can advocate for issues. Issues like SSM (prop 8). If they try something along those lines in the 2012, it will be bad for Romney. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-s-tax-returns-just-the-break-the-obama-camp-was-waiting-for/609913.md?page=5)