# Romney tax poll **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 25, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594 "2012-08-25T11:10:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/41 "2012-08-26T01:28:29Z")
The sole topic of conversation in an election _can’t_ be how the incumbent is doing, well or poorly. Because we’re not just voting whether to keep one guy, we’re voting on which of two guys we want. Even if Romney could prove that Obama’s terrible, it wouldn’t be enough, since he needs to also prove that he wouldn’t be even worse. And if he doesn’t want to prove anything about himself, what does that tell us? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/42 "2012-08-26T01:29:54Z")
[QUOTE= Little Nemo] Seriously, when you find yourself being more secretive than Nixon, it should be a wake-up call [/QUOTE] Can you imagine if Romney were to give a “Seamus” speech at the convention? Itemizing everything he owes, everything he owns, and closing defiantly with “And we also have an Irish Setter that was given to us by a contributor, that my kids love, called Seamus, and we’re NOT giving that dog back no matter what–what, Ann? I did? Really? No shit. Man I must have been shitfaced-drunk…” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/43 "2012-08-26T01:31:43Z")
Aside: > [@](#): > > Holy cow, that’s some serious duccuts to be ‘spending’… The words is “ducats”, as in “O my daughter! O my ducats!”. It’s an old Italian unit of money. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/44 "2012-08-26T01:43:15Z")
Ya know, that’s one of those things I tend to look up but got lazy. This. One. Time. ☹ (not that I don’t have atroshus spellign otherwise) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/45 "2012-08-26T09:44:33Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Populism and wealth envy still plays in Peoria Remember, if the Democrats are the party of envy, the Republicans are the party of jealousy. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/46 "2012-08-26T14:06:02Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Remember, if the Democrats are the party of envy, the Republicans are the party of jealousy. Wealth envy and jealousy always plays. I pointed out earlier that there was a lot of sniping at Kerry over his wife’s wealth. Arriana Huffington had her ass handed to her over her “zero tax year” when running for office. This isn’t a republican thing or a democrat thing, its a human nature thing. And while we strive for “fairness” in our tax code, there are a lot of opinions on what is fair - that isn’t new either. Which is why I think this is a failure of strategic planning. Maybe this year tax rates on the wealthy are more front and center, but I really don’t think its significantly so. We’ve been talking tax rates on the wealthy since Reagan, if not before. This isn’t a new point of contention between parties. Nor is releasing tax records a new issue for candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/47 "2012-08-26T17:00:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Wealth envy and jealousy always plays. I pointed out earlier that there was a lot of sniping at Kerry over his wife’s wealth. Arriana Huffington had her ass handed to her over her “zero tax year” when running for office. This isn’t a republican thing or a democrat thing, its a human nature thing. And while we strive for “fairness” in our tax code, there are a lot of opinions on what is fair - that isn’t new either. Which is why I think this is a failure of strategic planning. Maybe this year tax rates on the wealthy are more front and center, but I really don’t think its significantly so. We’ve been talking tax rates on the wealthy since Reagan, if not before. This isn’t a new point of contention between parties. Nor is releasing tax records a new issue for candidates. The thing is we’re a democracy. People like Sam can complain about it but if populism and wealth envy play then it’s an issue that should be addressed. The people who support tax cuts for the wealthy need to step up and explain why they’re a good thing for them to pay less taxes than the middle class. If the Republican plan of favoring the wealthy is a good plan then the Republicans should bring it out into the open and sell it on its merits. Then people like Romney wouldn’t need to hide their tax records. The alternative is that the Republicans can’t make this case. Their tax cuts benefit the wealthy at the expense of the rest of us. And if that’s the case, then the rest of us are fully justified in using democracy to vote for an end to those tax cuts. But I can’t see any argument that claims our tax policy is right but it needs to be hidden from public view. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/48 "2012-08-26T17:11:53Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > How does the math work out here? If the funds of the foundation count toward his tithing, they should count toward his income, as well. Unless of course the returns that the foundation had were substantially lower than his personal income. About the same way it works for my charitable trust, I suppose, though I have no special knowledge of how Romney’s finances are set up. My trust has income. Some years taxes are paid by the trust, depending upon investment performance. If investment losses exceed gains then there may be no income to tax for the trust. The trust donates a considerable part of its income. In years when there has been a loss for the trust then principle is paid out to support the trust’s charitable goals. In layman’s speak I consider those donations to be donations I made (though technically that is not quite correct). YMMV. Consult your financial planner. This does not constitute advice. Do not fold, spindle or mutilate. Investments incur the risk of loss. You may lose your principle and your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/49 "2012-08-26T17:22:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I voted ‘other’ - he doesn’t want to release his tax returns because that would play into the Obama strategy of trying to find distractions to occupy the news cycle until the election, so that the focus doesn’t get put on Obama and his spectacular failure as president. That really doesn’t fly, Sam. First of all, he didn’t release his taxes during the primaries, before he was directly engaged with Obama. If he’d done it 8 months ago, they’d be old news by now. Second, by not releasing ten year’s of returns, he’s rejecting the sound bite of “doing what his father did for the sake of integrity and openness in politics”. That’s not an opportunity a campaign strategist would turn down unless there’s something pretty toxic in one of those ten years. The damage that Romney is taking by not releasing the taxes is far worse than if he’d just been taking uncontroversial deductions. Given that Romney turned down the chance to just release five years of taxes with no further questions from the Obama campaign (which to me, sounds an awful lot like a note slipped under the door saying “I know what you did last summer”), I’m gonna have to go with the tax amnesty guess. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/50 "2012-08-26T20:48:31Z")
Romney has released his 2010 tax return. It has been out there since January 2012. [Romney’s 2010 return in PDF](http://thorndike.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Romney1040-2010.pdf), big 203 page file He filed a form 1116 Foreign Tax Credit, which is filed when an individual, estate, or trust has paid income tax to a foreign government. It allows the taxpayer to offset his/her US taxes in the amount of taxes paid to a foreign government, _ **within limits** _. Those limits are the key. [The Foreign Tax Credit limit](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97112,00.html) > [@](#): > > Your foreign tax credit cannot be more than your total U.S. tax liability multiplied by a fraction. The numerator of the fraction is your taxable income from sources outside the United States. The denominator is your total taxable income from U.S. and foreign sources. That is a math formula. If US tax liability is zero then so is the foreign tax credit. ```auto Foreign Tax Credit = US Tax Liab X (Taxable foreign income ) (----------------------------------) (Taxable US + taxable foreign income) ``` With his 2010 IRS forms Romney filed a supplement to his form 1116 which detailed the amount of foreign tax paid on his passive income each year from 2000 to 2010 and showing these payments were not carried back or forward (excepting 2008 year) - they were used in the year the foreign tax was paid. (Starts at page 165 of the above linked PDF) ```auto **Year Credit** 2000 $ 31,838 2001 $ 25,771 2002 $ 28,875 2003 $ 11,173 2004 $ 87,550 2005 $333,149 2006 $276,386 2007 $275,488 2008 $151,015 2009 $ 62,524 2010 $ 67,173 ``` Ergo, he had US tax liability each year from 2000 through 2010. His financials were not structured to eliminate all taxes owed. His tax preparer at Price Waterhouse was pretty thorough though he didn’t take a [deduction](http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/the-tax-deduction-mitt-romney-did-not-take/)for health insurance premiums paid by those with self employment income. Might could have saved another $5,000 but that would depend on some particular details. Oh well, that’s $5 grand more in the Treasury. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/51 "2012-08-26T21:06:29Z")
Just noticed that the percents given in this poll are way off – the total is about 149%! ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/52 "2012-08-26T22:26:06Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Just noticed that the percents given in this poll are way off – the total is about 149%! People can vote for more than one item on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/53 "2012-08-27T04:05:34Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I put “paid zero in taxes one year”, though I used that for more of a stand-in for “paid an effective tax rate of 1%ish in federal taxes in 2008 or 2009”. Most of his income is from investments, and he apparently carried losses from 2009 to 2010. Since you don’t get taxed for selling investments with a negative return, and a lot of peoples investments had negative returns in those two years due to the Recession, it seems pretty plausible. If his investments earned nothing in one year, then it wouldn’t be income and he would have a larger portion of his income subject to the 35% rate. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I voted ‘other’ - he doesn’t want to release his tax returns because that would play into the Obama strategy of trying to find distractions to occupy the news cycle until the election, so that the focus doesn’t get put on Obama and his spectacular failure as president. You realize that he isn’t the first candidate that has been asked to produce tax returns, right? > [@](#): > > Look at all the speculation you people are engaging in without any information about his taxes at all. We all know that the minute the Democrats get hold of all that data they will start ‘questioning’ it day in and day out. They’ll wonder about possible motives for certain deductions, they’ll raise hell if he tithed too much or too little to the church, every tax shelter he took will be used against him, yada yada yada. It will not stop the clamoring for more information on the demagoguing of his wealth - it will increase it. Didn’t Obama offer to drop all demands for more tax returns if Romney produced the last 5 years? We have SOME information about his taxes, he did release two (more or less). > [@](#): > > Romney would not be wrong in doing this, and would be doing what everyone else does - including Obama and the Clintons and probably anyone on this board who makes enough money to hire a tax preparer. Then why hide it? > [@](#): > > But that won’t stop Romney’s opposition from turning every single deduction into a hammer to use to beat on him. Populism and wealth envy still plays in Peoria, and the Democrats have precious little else to run on, so that’s the game. And Romney’s not playing. You make it sound like Obama was on food stamps. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/54 "2012-08-27T04:16:44Z")
> [@](#): > > …and would be doing what everyone else does - including Obama and the Clintons and probably anyone on this board who makes enough money to hire a tax preparer… _What do the simple folk do? To help them to keep what is due? To block a vexing error They hire a tax peparer And thats! What simple folk doooooo…_ ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/55 "2012-08-27T19:44:53Z")
I voted “paid less than 13%” and “other”. The “other” is that a person with a complicated tax return will almost certainly have some things in his return that look like tax dodges and shenanigans as **China Guy** suggests. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/56 "2012-08-28T01:43:33Z")
I voted “other”. Like a couple of people who posted before, I think 2010 is too glaring of a cut off. It points to the 2009 tax amnesty being the embarrassment he wants to hide. I don’t think that I’ve heard of him denying taking it, either. So it seems like a good fit. I’ve been known to be absolutely wrong about politics in the past, though. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/57 "2012-08-28T21:57:32Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > If he paid more than 13% and tithed, he is waiting to reveal them as some sort of October Surprise, so he can go “see? What was all that fuss about? Why didn’t you trust me?” This is what I’m betting on, especially when he promised to release more info in October. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/58 "2012-08-28T22:06:32Z")
Well, he’ll frame it that way, even if the returns show he should be indicted for blatant tax fraud. I like the argument that this mega-issue shows his poor skills at long-range problem-solving, which I think are crucial in a POTUS. If you can’t figure out that your tax returns are a potential fire-storm when you’re just starting to think about a serious run for POTUS (2005? 2006, maybe?), then maybe you’re not equipped to make long-range decisions for the nation? I’m just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/59 "2012-08-28T22:23:08Z")
> [@](#): > > October surprise That’s where I’ve been wondering how much it would have cost him to cleanse his tax returns starting in 2004 or 2005 (assuming he started a couple years before the Mcain primaries and never left the idea behind). By “cleanse,” I mean pull anything in from offshore, etc., to make it as 'Merican as possible and not look like he’s gaming the system. Where that line is is up to you (the proverbial you) to decide. Are there even back-of-the-envelope guesses out there? Five million a year? Ten? Just a million (heh, “just”)? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594/60 "2012-08-28T23:22:54Z")
I’m curious how the [Bain Capitol](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/08/24/debate-over-bain-capital-investor-documents/) stuff washes out. I have no doubt it’s all within the law, but this is precisely the sort of tax strategy that should be at issue in this election. Should this sort of tax offset be legal? This is precisely why Romneys taxes are an issue. If we are going to discuss the countries debt, then the countries revenue is as relevant as spending. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romney-tax-poll/632594.md?page=2)