# Romney's stated Plan or lack there of? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 12, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486 "2012-10-12T03:33:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/21 "2012-10-12T16:41:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ok, here’s my specific plan for America: grow the economy. How? By lowering unemployment and increasing growth. If you ask what my plan means for research and development tax credits, I won’t answer you. If you ask what my plan means for extending benefits for unemployed workers, I’ll say that will have to be negotiated. If you ask about what trade initiatives I will undertake, I’ll say that everything is on the table. > > Would you call my plan “specific?” Of course not. But a 20% across-the-board reduction in income tax rates is pretty specific. As is capping deductions at $20-50k. If you want to get the rest of the details, ask Paul Ryan - because Romney explicitly says “[Pass the House Republican Budget proposal](http://www.mittromney.com/issues/spending)”. That was chock full of tasty, horrible, details. Here are some others: Privatize Amtrak Cut NEA etc. funding by $600 million Eliminate Title X Cut foreign aid by $100 million Block grant Medicaid Repeal Davis-Bacon Cut the federal workforce by 10% I happen to think every one of those ideas is pretty lousy (some more than others), but it’s certainly a spending plan. Now his jobs plan is very relatively vague - it’s basically just sit back and let things happen. But then again, that’s pretty much the GOP response to the job market in general - let the market handle it. In the areas he actually can set policy (taxes, regulation, spending) Romney does have a good amount of detail, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Catballou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Catballou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catballou)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/22 "2012-10-12T19:38:14Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I guess I cut politicians some slack when it comes to the exact numbers - the policy is plenty specific: > > 1. Cut rates > 2. Cap deductions > > That’s it. You can move around the numbers, but that’s the policy. Pretty clearly the result will be a big tax cut for the rich, so I obviously object when Romney tries to claim that it will also be revenue neutral _and_ not raise taxes on anyone making under $200k. That part is bullshit. > > But just because your plan doesn’t have the result you claim doesn’t mean it isn’t specific. > > Let’s compare - Obama in 2008 had a specific plan for health-care reform. He also made claims about what it would do re: costs and the number of uninsured. If those claims turn out to not be true, does that make the plan unspecific? Nah, it just makes it a bad plan (I happen to think it’s good, btw). > > So I’d say Romney has a relatively well-specified bad tax plan. > > He also has relatively well-specific bad plans on bank regulations (repeal Dodd-Frank), environmental regulations (end EPA regulation of coal and carbon in general), women’s health (appoint justices like Scalia), and a whole host of other issues. That is not a platform or position. Those are empty sound bites. 20% tax cuts AND lowering the deficit AND increasing defense spending by 2 trillion? Someone will pay for it and we want to know who. ---
**Author:** ![mac9891](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@mac9891](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac9891)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/23 "2012-10-12T19:41:36Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Of course not. But a 20% across-the-board reduction in income tax rates is pretty specific. As is capping deductions at $20-50k. > > If you want to get the rest of the details, ask Paul Ryan - because Romney explicitly says “[Pass the House Republican Budget proposal](http://www.mittromney.com/issues/spending)”. That was chock full of tasty, horrible, details. > > Here are some others: > > Privatize Amtrak > Cut NEA etc. funding by $600 million > Eliminate Title X > Cut foreign aid by $100 million > Block grant Medicaid > Repeal Davis-Bacon > Cut the federal workforce by 10% > > I happen to think every one of those ideas is pretty lousy (some more than others), but it’s certainly a spending plan. > > Now his jobs plan is very relatively vague - it’s basically just sit back and let things happen. But then again, that’s pretty much the GOP response to the job market in general - let the market handle it. In the areas he actually can set policy (taxes, regulation, spending) Romney does have a good amount of detail, IMO. You know the Paul Ryan budget was shot down and laughed at by like everyone? Even republicans were like no, just no? I don’t think they are proposing that anymore. Anytime Ryan is asked for numbers he says o well its complicated (which it is) but at least basics trends of the plan need to be shown. Right now its all well cut taxes and keep everything and balance the budget. Which is totally non-logical ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/24 "2012-10-12T20:02:30Z")
There is a plan. But Romney is a leader, not a legislator, he points out the direction and the vision, and leaves the hard work to Congress. But, given his leadership ability and his proven capacity for bi-partisanship, he plans to talk the Dems into compromising away everything they believe in. He’s a visionary, the kind who doesn’t take drugs, and therefore never sobers up. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/25 "2012-10-12T20:04:15Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > As is capping deductions at $20-50k. It is strange that there is not a single word about deductions on his [website’s page on tax policy.](http://www.mittromney.com/issues/tax) If the candidate’s tax proposal goes from eliminating deductions that don’t encourage investment, to capping deductions at $17.5k, to capping deductions at $25 or $50k, and having some undefined point at which deductions are phased out, that simply isn’t a specific plan, especially when it is being claimed that the plan is revenue neutral. All you have to do is look at the Tax Policy Center’s analysis, and the conservative criticism that the TPC made the wrong assumptions about what deductions would be eliminated, to understand that everyone on the planet is simply guessing at this point as to what Romney’s proposal is for deductions. > [@](#): > > If you want to get the rest of the details, ask Paul Ryan - because Romney explicitly says “[Pass the House Republican Budget proposal](http://www.mittromney.com/issues/spending)”. That was chock full of tasty, horrible, details. That’s interesting, I hadn’t seen that. The last I heard on the subject was that Ryan had adopted [Romney’s budget plan](http://news.yahoo.com/romney-seeks-distance-ryans-budget-plans-194311316.html), not the other way around. And I agree, Ryan’s budget is an actual, specific budget plan, and I disagree with it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/26 "2012-10-13T02:52:12Z")
Where Romney is specific, his plan supersedes Ryan’s. Where it is not, it’s perfectly fair to fill in the blanks with Ryan’s specifics. As for specificity in general, I don’t see Romney being any more vague than any other candidate in history. The only guy I remember with a very detailed economic plan was Bill Clinton in 1992. Otherwise, it’s just a bunch of principles with the specifics to be worked out in negotiations with Congress. If you look at candidate Obama’s specifics, most of those were thrown out early in his Presidency anyway. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/27 "2012-10-13T05:19:32Z")
Well, yeah. He found out he was elected Captain of the Titanic one minute after it hit the iceberg. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/28 "2012-10-13T05:39:20Z")
An all purpose excuse that doesn’t apply to most of his promises. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/29 "2012-10-13T06:13:52Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > I’m still trying to figure out how six studies backed the Romney budget plan when Ryan couldn’t give any specifics about what the offsetting deductions were that would be eliminated. From Bloomberg: [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-12/the-final-word-on-mitt-romney-s-tax-plan.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-12/the-final-word-on-mitt-romney-s-tax-plan.html) The Romney campaign sent over a list of the studies, but they are perhaps more accurately described as “analyses,” since four of them are blog posts or op-eds. I’m not hating – I blog for a living – but I don’t generally describe my posts as “studies.” None of the analyses do what Romney’s campaign says: show that his tax plan is sound. I’m going to walk through them individually, but first I want to make a broad point. … There are only meaningful “alternatives” to discuss with Congress if Romney can pick and choose from a pool of tax preferences for the wealthy that far exceeds the $250 billion annual cost of his rate cuts for them. If the pool of available base broadeners is just large enough to finance his tax cuts, then Romney actually is dictating a plan to Congress: if they don’t eliminate exactly the set of preferences he proposes, his plan will either have to raise taxes on the middle class or grow the deficit. TPC finds that Romney’s rate cuts, plus elimination of the estate tax and Alternative Minimum Tax, would cost the Treasury about $250 billion in revenue from high earners. If he could somehow find, say, $300 billion in base broadeners from the wealthy, $15 billion of which would have to go to a phaseout, that wouldn’t leave a lot of “alternatives” on the table. Yet there aren’t enough base broadeners for Romney to reach the $300 billion level, let alone exceed it. Sorry to disappoint the gullible conservative, but no study will add 2+2 and make 9. > [@adaher](#): > > If you look at candidate Obama’s specifics, most of those were thrown out early in his Presidency anyway. When you look at adaher’s posts, you can see he just makes shit up anyway. Health care reform: delivered. Financial reform: delivered. Economic tailspin, following worst post-war financial crisis: diverted with stimulus package. A laser-like focus on Al Qaeda in Pakistan, regional crockery be damned: Executed. Pull out from Iraq: Done. Repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell: Done. Extension of Bush Tax Cuts for Low and Middle Income Families: Well, the Republicans have so far extended it all, but not permanently. A ban on aid for international family planning and contraception: reversed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/30 "2012-10-13T06:59:50Z")
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure;15586106[/QUOTE] Health care reform: delivered. Financial reform: delivered. Economic tailspin, following worst post-war financial crisis: diverted with stimulus package. A laser-like focus on Al Qaeda in Pakistan, regional crockery be damned: Executed. Pull out from Iraq: Done. Repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell: Done. Extension of Bush Tax Cuts for Low and Middle Income Families: Well, the Republicans have so far extended it all, but not permanently. A ban on aid for international family planning and contraception: reversed. [/QUOTE] Double standard alert. Obama’s health reform and financial reform plans were vague. He left the details up to Congress. The only specific promise he made on health care reform he broke(no mandate). Mitt Romney favors tax reform. His plan is just as specific as Obama’s health care reform or financial reform. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/31 "2012-10-13T10:03:38Z")
The Romney/Ryan plan: “Our plan for the future is that, in hindsight, we wouldn’t do the things that Obama did that we now are calling wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/32 "2012-10-13T11:16:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Mitt Romney favors tax reform. His plan is just as specific as Obama’s health care reform or financial reform. Analysts could look at Obama’s somewhat vague goals for health care and say “yeah, that could work – there are a bunch of different ways those goals could be accomplished”. He wasn’t specific, but there was a possibility of success. Analysts (well, the honest ones who’ve attended at least one math class in their lives) look at Romney’s totally vague goals for tax reform (cut 20% off the rates across the board, revenue neutral, won’t touch the biggest deductions) and just can’t see any possible way that could work. So they ask Romney for how he could do that – what he tells them doesn’t have to be the final plan, we all know congress will have their say – but there is just no way it adds up. When you throw in his other plans (cut the deficit by increasing defense spending significantly balanced by cutting planned parenthood and PBS) the math gets even worse. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/33 "2012-10-13T11:25:29Z")
It also bothers me when Romney says he wants to cut taxes on the “job creators” so they can create more jobs. If the “job creators” end up with more money to create more jobs, and the whole plan is revenue neutral, it pretty much follows that the non-“job creators” are going to have to pay more, no? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/34 "2012-10-13T13:33:10Z")
Uh-oh. Another non-partisan analysis saying Romney’s tax plan is impossible: [http://mobile.politico.com/iphone/story/1012/82366.html](http://mobile.politico.com/iphone/story/1012/82366.html) The whole reason people are saying Romney’s plan lacks specifics (as opposed to his health care plan, which is also somewhat vague) is that there are very real doubts that it is feasible. Yes, Obama’s health plans in 2008 were very general: but I’m not sure that anyone thought what he was proposing was impossible. Both candidates’ plans on economic recovery are vague, but they also aren’t outlandish. Romney’s tax plan is getting hammered because the five elements he’s promised (e.g., 20% reduction, eliminate deductions but save others, etc) appear to have the credibility of late night infomercials that sell miracle cream that sucks fat out of your thighs while you sleep. And the promises from Romney/Ryan are like, “No no! The numbers add up! You just haven’t seen our secret ingredient that makes it all possible! Buy our product and you’ll find out what we are actually selling!” If they know the numbers add up, they should show their math. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/35 "2012-10-13T20:43:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If they know the numbers add up, they should show their math. Here, we can do it with math. It’s kind of like saying X - Y = 0 X = $5T Y = Q + R + S Q \< $500B R \< $1T S \< $250B Now, I don’t have to know what Q, R or S actually are to see the math doesn’t add up. We aren’t even asking for the actual values of Q,R,S – as you point out Congress will tweak those later – just show us categories that have some possibility of adding up. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486/36 "2012-10-13T21:54:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You nuts? Ponies eat more than kids! **Hay will cost more than weed!** Emergency rooms will be filled with Dads with shovel-related injuries and cardiac infarctions! This will inspire weed-growers to switch to hay as their cash crop of choice. As they don’t own combines, they will have to plant & harvest the hay by hand, which is more labor-intensive and will thus create jobs and small-business revenue, and fight the war on drugs all at the same time. Well played, **fumster.** Well played. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-stated-plan-or-lack-there-of/637486.md?page=1)