# Romney's voucher system for schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919 "2012-06-12T14:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/1 "2012-06-12T14:37:07Z")
> **[Vouchers Unspoken, Romney Hails School Choice (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/politics/in-romneys-voucher-education-policy-a-return-to-gop-roots.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp)** > > As president, Mitt Romney said, he would seek to overhaul the federal government’s largest school programs into a voucherlike system, replacing top-down Washington mandates. Do you think this is just another way to keep the rich rich and the poor poor? What do you think is good/bad about this plan? What is a better solution? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/2 "2012-06-12T14:50:11Z")
Federal government’s involvement in education is unconstitutional, whether through public schools or through vouchers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/3 "2012-06-12T14:51:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Federal government’s involvement in education is unconstitutional, whether through public schools or through vouchers. And I’m sure you’ve got the SCOTUS cites to back that up, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/4 "2012-06-12T14:52:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I’m sure you’ve got the SCOTUS cites to back that up, right? I’ve got the Constitution cite to back that up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/5 "2012-06-12T14:54:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I’ve got the Constitution cite to back that up. And we should accept your interpretation of what the Constitution says over that of SCOTUS because…? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/6 "2012-06-12T14:57:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I’ve got the Constitution cite to back that up. So cite it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/7 "2012-06-12T15:01:30Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So cite it. Article 1, Section 8. Dealing with education is not one of the enumerated powers of the federal government. 10th Amendment: thus it is left to the states. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/8 "2012-06-12T15:07:30Z")
Can we stay on topic please? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/9 "2012-06-12T15:10:21Z")
On topic: I have some questions, because I’m not entirely sure I understand what the voucher program is all about. Is the crux of the buiscuit that public money will be pooled so that any kid can to any school? How does that not just make every school a public school? And if that public money is available to a kid who wants to go to a private Catholic school, is that on the table as well? If so, how is it constitutional that my tax money would go toward providing religious education to someone? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/10 "2012-06-12T15:14:53Z")
> [@The story](#): > > Students would be free to use $25 billion in federal money to attend any school they choose — public, charter, online or private — a system, he said, that would introduce marketplace dynamics into education to drive academic gains. Do we really want capitalism, or “marketplace dynamics,” driving educational standards-- where only a privileged few succeed? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/11 "2012-06-12T15:15:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And we should accept your interpretation of what the Constitution says over that of SCOTUS because…? I have no clue, but I know who does. That is, to answer the question of why an individual’s unsupported claim of constitutional interpretation should be given more weight than an actual SCOTUS decision can be answered by **The Tao’s Revenge** in [this series](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15103162&postcount=101) of posts, insisting that the voter ID laws represent a poll tax even though he was reminded of _Crawford v. Marion County._ His explanation: “If one boxer knees the other in the testicles in a Queensberry rule match, does that cease to be a below the belt foul if the ref doesn’t call it?” In my view, that argument is absurd, but he seems to make it without much in the way of dissenting voices. So, **Terr** , if you want so helpful advice, insist on your utterly wrong statement’s truth and mutter something about boxers and referees. That seems to work wonders. And if not, let me know – I can find plenty of other examples where people have told me how useless the actual case law was, and that their opinions were the right ones. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/12 "2012-06-12T15:20:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no clue, but I know who does. That is, to answer the question of why an individual’s unsupported claim of constitutional interpretation should be given more weight than an actual SCOTUS decision can be answered by **The Tao’s Revenge** in [this series](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15103162&postcount=101) of posts, insisting that the voter ID laws represent a poll tax even though he was reminded of _Crawford v. Marion County._ His explanation: “If one boxer knees the other in the testicles in a Queensberry rule match, does that cease to be a below the belt foul if the ref doesn’t call it?” > > In my view, that argument is absurd, but he seems to make it without much in the way of dissenting voices. So, **Terr** , if you want so helpful advice, insist on your utterly wrong statement’s truth and mutter something about boxers and referees. That seems to work wonders. Citing a source you _disagree_ with, just to win snark points? _That_ should advance the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/13 "2012-06-12T15:22:09Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/politics/in-romneys-voucher-education-policy-a-return-to-gop-roots.html?pagewanted=1&\_r=2&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/politics/in-romneys-voucher-education-policy-a-return-to-gop-roots.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp) > > Do you think this is just another way to keep the rich rich and the poor poor? What do you think is good/bad about this plan? What is a better solution? Aside from the merits/demerits of the plan, the article is somewhat misleading in saying that Romney’s plan “reverses a quarter-century trend,” and is “an about-face from the education policies of President George W. Bush.” Conservatives, including Bush, have been pushing for vouchers for years now. And while Democrats, including Obama, have resisted voucher systems, they have begun to embrace – sometimes openly, sometimes tacitly – public charter schools as a way of getting the benefits of school choice while keeping the schools public. Like it or don’t, the idea that this is an novel or extremist idea is laughable. As to the merits of the plan: in urban areas, the idea has a lot of merit. Parents will have the choice of a dozen different schools within a few miles; let them pick the one that meets their kids’ needs best. In rural areas, it gets a lot more difficult. There’s places where you only have one school for a thousand-square mile area; If you start breaking that school up, you start having situations in which parents have to choose between a school they don’t like or giving their kid an absurdly long commute (or both). You also start get smaller and smaller schools, which tend to be both more expensive (because of costs of scale) and offer less services. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/14 "2012-06-12T15:27:10Z")
> [@furt](#): > > In rural areas, it gets a lot more difficult. There’s places where you only have one school for a thousand-square mile area; If you start breaking that school up, you start having situations in which parents have to choose between a school they don’t like or giving their kid an absurdly long commute (or both). You also start get smaller and smaller schools, which tend to be both more expensive (because of costs of scale) and offer less services. In what ways would it affect a school for which there is no other alternative choice within reasonable distance? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/15 "2012-06-12T15:27:38Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Do we really want capitalism, or “marketplace dynamics,” driving educational standards-- where only a privileged few succeed? … cuz the current system is working so well. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/16 "2012-06-12T15:32:02Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Is the crux of the buiscuit that public money will be pooled so that any kid can to any school? How does that not just make every school a public school? And if that public money is available to a kid who wants to go to a private Catholic school, is that on the table as well? If so, how is it constitutional that my tax money would go toward providing religious education to someone? SCOTUS ruled in [Zelman v. Simmons-Harris](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelman_v._Simmons-Harris) (2002) that the use of vouchers for religious education was constitutional so long as it meets the following criteria: > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]the program must have a valid secular purpose,[/li][li]aid must go to parents and not to the schools,[/li][li]a broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,[/li][li]the program must be neutral with respect to religion, and[/li][li]there must be adequate nonreligious options.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/17 "2012-06-12T15:36:18Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Is the crux of the buiscuit that public money will be pooled so that any kid can to any school? How does that not just make every school a public school? And if that public money is available to a kid who wants to go to a private Catholic school, is that on the table as well? If so, how is it constitutional that my tax money would go toward providing religious education to someone? Yes, the idea of vouchers is that the parents decide where some portion of the district’s education budget is spent. Typically, it would look like this: if a district is spending $10,000 a year per-pupil, and a parent wants to take their kid out and send him to a private school, the private school gets a portion of the $10,000 from the school district (typically about half). The school gets to keep the rest (to spend on the kids they still have), but parents who otherwise couldn’t afford a private school now have the option. I’ll let the lawyers explain the constitutionality of it, but there are plenty of precedents for religious groups getting government money to provide secular services (soup kitchen, homeless shelter, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/18 "2012-06-12T15:36:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … cuz the current system is working so well. I never said it was. This is not a “Either we keep it the way it is or implement more marketplace dynamics” scenario. I was only voicing my concern with implementing a capitalistic approach to fixing our schools. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/19 "2012-06-12T15:39:51Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Yes, the idea of vouchers is that the parents decide where some portion of the district’s education budget is spent. Typically, it would look like this: if a district is spending $10,000 a year per-pupil, and a parent wants to take their kid out and send him to a private school, the private school gets a portion of the $10,000 from the school district (typically about half). The school gets to keep the rest (to spend on the kids they still have), but parents who otherwise couldn’t afford a private school now have the option. > > I’ll let the lawyers explain the constitutionality of it, but there are plenty of precedents for religious groups getting government money to provide secular services (soup kitchen, homeless shelter, etc). The $10K in your example is mostly local, Romney’s proposal concerns the federal money going to schools, which is a lot less. Thus Romney’s vouchers would be on the order of $500 or so annually ($25B divided by around 50 million k-12 students in the US). The proposal is not serious. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/20 "2012-06-12T15:42:33Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > I never said it was. This is not a “Either we keep it the way it is or implement more marketplace dynamics” scenario. I was only voicing my concern with implementing a capitalistic approach to fixing our schools. How it looks from the outside is that you are 'handwaving away" any suggestion but the status quo, since you don’t advance a position. In that regard, it does indeed look like you saying it is either/or. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919.md?page=2)