# Romney's voucher system for schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919 "2012-06-12T14:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/121 "2012-06-14T16:52:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not really an apples-to-apples comparison. School systems in other countries generally don’t build giant stadia\* for school sports teams, driver’s ed facilities, and other things that are pretty much universal at US schools. > > \*a public school in Texas broke ground on a _$60 million_ stadium earlier this year; hardly representative, but even if the average is $5 million it’s a huge additional cost, even if you don’t count maintenance and lighting and so on. Moreover, a lot of things show up in the public school system budget that would be covered under health care or other categories in other countries. My daughter gets speech therapy at school. My friend’s daughter has cerebral palsy and has a full time aid that comes out of the public school budget. We have a lot of ESL (English as a Second Language) teachers in public schools. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/122 "2012-06-14T17:01:05Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > We do, but it’s a long LONG process. It’s also called No Child Left Behind. And what constitutes as bad behavior is relative. Some schools are just bad, period. You gonna kick out 60 or 70 per cent of the student body? And what about good kids with bad grades? If it is a LONG process, it’s worthless. And you kick out 30% - then see how the behavior of the rest improves. “Good kids with bad grades” is not a problem. It’s not the grades that are dragging the schools down. It is the utter lack of discipline or respect for teachers that is spearheaded by a minority of student but is displayed by all. You remove the minority, the rest will fall in line. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/123 "2012-06-14T17:08:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not really an apples-to-apples comparison. School systems in other countries generally don’t build giant stadia\* for school sports teams, driver’s ed facilities, and other things that are pretty much universal at US schools. Really? What percentage of education funding in this country is spent on sports? Do you assume that other countries don’t spend money on non-essential things? Do you think other countries don’t teach driver’s ed? Sorry, but while I agree that any school spending that much money on a stadium is asinine (even a wealthy suburb), an anecdote or two does not to explain away the fact that we spend 50% more than other developed nations and get mediocre results. Like the man said: Money plays a factor, but you’re kidding yourself if you think money without reform will fix the problem. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/124 "2012-06-14T17:10:48Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Moreover, a lot of things show up in the public school system budget that would be covered under health care or other categories in other countries. Really? Do you imagine other countries don’t also run some health services through their schools, or have immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/125 "2012-06-14T17:27:42Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, but while I agree that any school spending that much money on a stadium is asinine (even a wealthy suburb), an anecdote or two does not to explain away the fact that we spend 50% more than other developed nations and get mediocre results. > > Like the man said: Money plays a factor, but you’re kidding yourself if you think money without reform will fix the problem. It’s my understanding that the “mediocre results” in spite of the greater spending is attributable to the fact that a fair chunk of the spending isn’t necessarily directed toward better education for the students, but being injected into things like buildings, sports equipment, and administrator’s salaries. Secondly, education isn’t as culturally valued here in the US as it is in other countries, making it harder for improvements to be fully leveraged. Third, I don’t think we pay teachers nearly enough, making it harder to draw top talent. Fourth, I think too much money is wasted on ideology and political crap that really has no place in the public education system. So I think a combination of funding + reasoned allocation of that funding + a shift in sociocultural values would greatly improve the state of the education system. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/126 "2012-06-14T17:31:57Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Really? Do you imagine other countries don’t also run some health services through their schools, or have immigrants? I think a lot of those costs are budgeted not through the school district but through UHC programs. They exist in other countries, but I doubt the speech board my friend’s daughter uses to talk is paid for by the district in other countries as it is in my friend’s case. Is the sign language interpreter something the school budgets for in other countries - because in the U.S. that’s an expense the district needs to pick up. As for immigrant populations, I don’t know. My kid’s elementary school has about 500 students and six to eight ESL teachers depending on the year, is that proportionally about the same other places (obviously subbing Swedish or whatever for English)? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/127 "2012-06-14T18:24:00Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Really? What percentage of education funding in this country is spent on sports? Do you assume that other countries don’t spend money on non-essential things? Do you think other countries don’t teach driver’s ed? I don’t know how much goes to athletics- [school budgets](https://www.ocps.net/fs/budget/Documents/12%20Budget%20Summary.pdf), annoyingly, don’t bother to separate it out- but it’s clearly a lot. Other countries certainly don’t teach driver’s ed; in most developed countries, you don’t get a full license until 18, so it would be pointless. I was faintly shocked to discover that learning to drive was something you did in school when I moved to the US. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/128 "2012-06-14T18:42:17Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I think a lot of those costs are budgeted not through the school district but through UHC programs. They exist in other countries, but I doubt the speech board my friend’s daughter uses to talk is paid for by the district in other countries as it is in my friend’s case. Is the sign language interpreter something the school budgets for in other countries - because in the U.S. that’s an expense the district needs to pick up. 1. Not all other developed countries have comprehensive UHC. 2. Just picking Sweden as the example: yes, special needs expenses are sometimes provided and paid for through the schools, as in America. Other special needs expenses are sometimes provided for by other sources, also as in America. 3. Considering special education is about 10-15% of overall K-12 spending in the US, even if we take that out and assume other developed countries don’t spend a dime on special education, it still doesn’t account for the difference. > [@](#): > > As for immigrant populations, I don’t know. My kid’s elementary school has about 500 students and six to eight ESL teachers depending on the year, is that proportionally about the same other places (obviously subbing Swedish or whatever for English)? Again, just picking on Sweden: Immigrants as percentage of state population: 12.3 vs. 12.8. [http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Sweden/United-States/Immigration](http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Sweden/United-States/Immigration) Of course, not all immigrants don’t speak the language, but that’s true here, too. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/129 "2012-06-14T18:51:39Z")
> [@furt](#): > > 1. Not all other developed countries have comprehensive UHC. > 2. Just picking Sweden as the example: yes, special needs expenses are sometimes provided and paid for through the schools, as in America. Other special needs expenses are sometimes provided for by other sources, also as in America. > 3. Considering special education is about 10-15% of overall K-12 spending in the US, even if we take that out and assume other developed countries don’t spend a dime on special education, it still doesn’t account for the difference. > > Again, just picking on Sweden: Immigrants as percentage of state population: 12.3 vs. 12.8. [http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Sweden/United-States/Immigration](http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Sweden/United-States/Immigration) > > Of course, not all immigrants don’t speak the language, but that’s true here, too. I know, what I’m trying to get at is that those complexities make it impossible to look at per capita spending and say “we spend quite a bit comparatively on education.” Because what IS part of those education expenses (whether that be books and teachers, administrators, immigrant services, health related services, or stadia and drivers ed facilities) are not consistent. If you have a source of apples to apples comparisons, I’d love to see it, I don’t think it exists. Even just across the U.S. it varies from state to state in where the dollars are accounted for. And it sounds like thats the case in Sweden as well. And that makes the water really muddy and comparison functionally moot. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/130 "2012-06-14T19:08:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t know how much goes to athletics- [school budgets](https://www.ocps.net/fs/budget/Documents/12%20Budget%20Summary.pdf), annoyingly, don’t bother to separate it out- but it’s clearly a lot. The site you’re looking for national statistics is the NCES. School spending on interscholastic athletics is included in non-instructional spending, a category that is dominated by school lunches, but includes other extracurriculars. All non-instructional spending _combined_ accounts for about 5% of the overall. [http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/rev\_exp\_02/#5](http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/rev_exp_02/#5) If you look only at _primary education_ spending, the US is near the top, and obviously, there’s not much sports or driver ed there. Not to say that there isn’t a lot of _societal_ spending on interscholastic sports, but at the HS level most of the money comes from boosters/ticket sales, etc., not out of the general budget. Note that it’s very different at the college level. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/131 "2012-06-14T19:09:05Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Third, I don’t think we pay teachers nearly enough, making it harder to draw top talent. I see people say that all the time. Now - once again, let’s compare to Europe, where almost every country is getting a lot better results in education while paying much less per pupil. Let’s look at teacher salaries there: [http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/111111111/13000/1/reqno\_jrc37303\_teachers[2].pdf](http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/111111111/13000/1/reqno_jrc37303_teachers%5B2%5D.pdf) Table 5 on page 18: Teachers are less well paid, in general, than: engineers, bank credit clerks, cooks, skilled industrial workers, car mechanics. They are better paid than: bus drivers, call center agents, female sales assistants, building laborers. Table 6, page 19: Average teacher salaries, highest, Berlin: $45K/year. Looking at major Western European countries, the average is between $20K and $30K/year. Compare it to US: [http://www.educationworld.net/salaries\_us.html](http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_us.html) - California had the nation’s highest average salary in 2002-03, at $55,693. States joining California in the top tier were Michigan, at $54,020; Connecticut, at $53,962; New Jersey, at $53,872; and the District of Columbia, at $53,194. South Dakota had the lowest average salary in 2002-03, at $32,414. The other states in the bottom tier were Montana, at $35,754; Mississippi, at $35,135; North Dakota, at $33,869; and Oklahoma, at $33,277. Also in the lowest tier were the Virgin Islands, at $34,764; Guam at $34,738; and Puerto Rico, at $22,164. It seems that we’re paying teachers, on average, WAY more than in Europe. We also spend, per pupil, WAY more than Europeans do. And still the results are pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/132 "2012-06-14T19:21:06Z")
Um, according to your graph, instruction was 60%. First district budgets and now this. I have no idea what the per pupil cost is for educating my child, but I know his tuition is $16k. He had 4 regular classroom teachers (the 44 kids were split in half) plus an extra para, a computer teacher, a gym teacher, an art teacher, a music teacher, a special ed staff and gets a pretty stellar education. Smaller classrooms and money does have something to do with it. But it’s also the classwork. What he does is more advanced than the neighboring schools. I can tell you as a teacher I spend about 70 per cent of my planning time trying to figure out how to make things ‘accessible’ to kids because THEY CAN’T FRIGGIN READ. And that’s what teacher school was all about! What? Kids are failing? It’s urban differences. Teach to them. Toss out the classics, the grueling writing, the high expectations, the math drills. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/133 "2012-06-14T19:30:15Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I know, what I’m trying to get at is that those complexities make it impossible to look at per capita spending and say “we spend quite a bit comparatively on education.” Because what IS part of those education expenses (whether that be books and teachers, administrators, immigrant services, health related services, or stadia and drivers ed facilities) are not consistent. If you have a source of apples to apples comparisons, I’d love to see it, I don’t think it exists. Even just across the U.S. it varies from state to state in where the dollars are accounted for. And it sounds like thats the case in Sweden as well. And that makes the water really muddy and comparison functionally moot. Sorry, but that’s a cop-out. Yes, it’s complex and perfect comparisons are hard to come by; it doesn’t follow that the intelligent thing to do is just throw up our hands and say it’s impossible. I do education policy and research for a living (Higher Ed, not K-12), so I know very well how difficult the comparatives can be at times. K-12 spending is not one of those times. This is not a slight or minor discrepancy, or one where data in contradictory: by any measure, the US spends _well_ over the average for other developed nation on education. Pick any data set you like: the [OECD](http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd), the [UN](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmat.usc.edu%2Fu-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic%2F&ei=5TjaT-ShKI382gXHzcDTBg&usg=AFQjCNFcBVOnlgAXoiG6O7nHdUHPf4U9aQ), anything. The exact amounts change depending on what’s included and measured, but lots of researchers get paid to put those figures together exactly so that comparisons can be, and are, made by policymakers. And all of the figures say the same thing: compared to the rest of the world, the US spends a lot on education. We may not spend as much as we _could_ or _should_, but that’s a different issue, and a distraction from the question of why we’re not getting value for our money. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/134 "2012-06-14T19:31:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I see people say that all the time. Now - once again, let’s compare to Europe, where almost every country is getting a lot better results in education while paying much less per pupil. Let’s look at teacher salaries there: > > [http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/111111111/13000/1/reqno\_jrc37303\_teachers[2].pdf](http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/111111111/13000/1/reqno_jrc37303_teachers%5B2%5D.pdf) > > Table 5 on page 18: Teachers are less well paid, in general, than: engineers, bank credit clerks, cooks, skilled industrial workers, car mechanics. They are better paid than: bus drivers, call center agents, female sales assistants, building laborers. > > Table 6, page 19: Average teacher salaries, highest, Berlin: $45K/year. Looking at major Western European countries, the average is between $20K and $30K/year. > > Compare it to US: [http://www.educationworld.net/salaries\_us.html](http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_us.html) - California had the nation’s highest average salary in 2002-03, at $55,693. States joining California in the top tier were Michigan, at $54,020; Connecticut, at $53,962; New Jersey, at $53,872; and the District of Columbia, at $53,194. > > South Dakota had the lowest average salary in 2002-03, at $32,414. The other states in the bottom tier were Montana, at $35,754; Mississippi, at $35,135; North Dakota, at $33,869; and Oklahoma, at $33,277. Also in the lowest tier were the Virgin Islands, at $34,764; Guam at $34,738; and Puerto Rico, at $22,164. > > It seems that we’re paying teachers, on average, WAY more than in Europe. We also spend, per pupil, WAY more than Europeans do. And still the results are pathetic. Uh…and many Europeans enjoy HEALTH CARE, MATERNITY LEAVE, HOUSING CONTROL, and 1000000000 things Americans _don’t_. Whoop de do. My salary is $34k a year. When health care enrollment kicks in again, I’ll be paying $300/mo or 3600 a year and that’s not counting out of pocket costs. And if I were to get married and be pregnant, my maternity leave would be dismal. Oh and if you have two American teachers trying to put their kids through college? Forget it. Stop comparing salaries to Europe when standards of living are drastically different. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/135 "2012-06-14T20:06:08Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > **brickbacon** you may not have convinced me (yet) to change my views, but you state your case very well and are a strong counter example to some of the perhaps unfair stereotypes I have developed about teachers. Thanks. I appreciate the comment, and your willingness to listen. > [@furt](#): > > YES! Looking at the overall success of all charter schools nationwide, most of which are only a few years old, is missing the point. That’s exactly the point. If, on average charter school do the same or worse, meaning the average kid is the same or worse, then what is the point continuing to fund these experiments? I liken it to pharmaceutical research. Say you have a drug that is supposed to cure cancer. It does for some people, but for others it kills them, and for the average person it is ineffective or bad. What is the chance that such a drug would be approved? As in medicine, education solutions should be evaluated based on efficacy, but they should also do no harm. Unfortunately, many, many charter schools do just that. It’s shame that all of them can’t be great, or even better than the alternatives, but that seems to be the case. And it’s not because charter schools are “new”, it’s because it’s really hard to run an effective school in many of these areas. > [@furt](#): > > The intention of creating charter schools is not that they will all succeed immediately; it’s that some will succeed and some will fail, and we learn from both. That’s mighty nice that we will learn from having failed our children. Besides, I am not sure we will learn from the failures. Greed doesn’t have a memory, and many people looking to start a school are not bothering researching every failed school nearby. You seem to have this notion that we will see fewer and fewer failed charter schools when that logic doesn’t really hold in many other areas. Do “we” learn from every restaurant failure? Do we see fewer restaurant failures over time as a result. No. Not only because the same people aren’t involved each time, but also because of the nature of the task. > [@furt](#): > > Kids who do win the lottery frequently do better --sometimes wildly so – and sometimes do worse, depending on which charter they get into. But if the average person does not benefit, then what makes you think this is an effective solution? > [@furt](#): > > Thus, the quality of the school makes a difference, regardless of whether or not the parents give a shit. Parental involvement can make a good school better, or it can mitigate the damage of a bad school, but at the end of the day the school matters, and it matters a lot. And thus, the answer to your question above (“How well do you thing public schools would be doing if they only accepted kids whose parents give a shit?”) is _“better, but not as good as the effective charter schools – the ones everybody’s trying to reproduce – already do, because school quality matters.”_ School quality does matter, but the quality of charter schools as a whole is often lower even after having fewer restrictions and oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/136 "2012-06-14T20:07:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, but that’s a cop-out. Yes, it’s complex and perfect comparisons are hard to come by; it doesn’t follow that the intelligent thing to do is just throw up our hands and say it’s impossible. I do education policy and research for a living (Higher Ed, not K-12), so I know very well how difficult the comparatives can be at times. > > K-12 spending is not one of those times. This is not a slight or minor discrepancy, or one where data in contradictory: by any measure, the US spends _well_ over the average for other developed nation on education. Pick any data set you like: the [OECD](http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd), the [UN](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmat.usc.edu%2Fu-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic%2F&ei=5TjaT-ShKI382gXHzcDTBg&usg=AFQjCNFcBVOnlgAXoiG6O7nHdUHPf4U9aQ), anything. The exact amounts change depending on what’s included and measured, but lots of researchers get paid to put those figures together exactly so that comparisons can be, and are, made by policymakers. And all of the figures say the same thing: compared to the rest of the world, the US spends a lot on education. > > We may not spend as much as we _could_ or _should_, but that’s a different issue, and a distraction from the question of why we’re not getting value for our money. Do you have links to the methodology behind the data, I’m not seeing it in those two links. i.e. what is and what is not included, how the numbers are pulled, how the researchers are making sure they are getting apples to apples? (I don’t think more money solves the education problem in the U.S., btw. I think the U.S. needs a culture change to solve its education problem. I have a middle schooler and the peer pressure he is facing to be mediocre is actually fairly significant - that is my biggest battle with him. That he’d rather play Modern Warfare with his friends than read and that is what he perceives everyone else is doing. Fortunately, he is a fairly smart kid and will get over middle school - I hope. But we loose a lot of them at this age - or earlier - because school isn’t important here). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/137 "2012-06-14T22:44:15Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Uh…and many Europeans enjoy HEALTH CARE, MATERNITY LEAVE, HOUSING CONTROL, and 1000000000 things Americans _don’t_. You do understand that those salaries are before taxes. In case you were wondering, taxes are higher in Europe. Those maternity leaves, health care and housing controls are not free. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/138 "2012-06-14T22:53:31Z")
First off, my reply here is in the context of public schools only. I apologize to the OP for not taking vouchers or private schools into consideration. > [@](#): > > "One of Mr. Romney’s ideas for increasing students’ choices seems to contradict an anti-Washington emphasis: giving poor students the freedom to choose a public school outside their district. > > District boundaries have long been sacrosanct. They prevent urban students, for example, from enrolling in suburban schools that typically have higher-income families and sometimes more lavish budgets." Maybe I’m incredibly dense, but just I don’t understand how this would work. A poor student chooses to go to a public school in another district because it is better than the one in his own district. Presumably this will displace a child already attending the good school, assuming that school cannot expand infintely to handle any child that wants to attend it. Thus the whole idea of student choice sounds good, but it is completely removed from reality. You cannot address the problem of poor schools in this way. You must improve failing schools in poor districts, it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/139 "2012-06-15T07:17:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You do understand that those salaries are before taxes. In case you were wondering, taxes are higher in Europe. Those maternity leaves, health care and housing controls are not free. You do understand that employers in many countries in Europe pay a payroll tax, that is not included in the salary, that funds things like UHC. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919/140 "2012-06-15T12:59:59Z")
It’s my understanding that a few things happen when you employ market dynamics in these contexts: 1. The good get better 2. The worse-off get worse 3. Those who have limited choice in the first place tend to get screwed “Voting with feet” doesn’t really help much if your feet can only take you to one school because you can’t afford some crazy commute, especially if your school is getting siphoned because others are leaving. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/romneys-voucher-system-for-schools/624919.md?page=8)