Ron DeSantis is a Fascist

[Aeschines]

In my original thread, I said, “I think [DeSantis] is just your basic authoritarian.” I also said that I thought Trump was an actual fascist. I’ll defend both statements. Keep in mind, I think DeSantis is a bully, a dick, a bit of a dope, and a person we absolutely should not let become president. He would be a terrible president and a dangerous one, but I think he’s quite different from Trump.

Btw, I think DrDeth got it right about what DeSantis is, so I’ll try not to reiterate their points.

I’ll start with Trump.

Why Trump is an actual fascist
I agree with the assertion that he is an “inadvertent fascist,” since he’s too dumb to know what fascism actually is. But I think that Trump’s thinking is genuinely fascist:

• “Make America Great Again” ticks off a big box in the fascism checklist: the portrayal of the country as corrupt, weak, broken, and in need of recovering its former glory. This was Mussolini’s and Hitler’s core message. Trump of course has no explicit ideology in his brain, but it tracks very well with that of the famous fascists of the past.
• Trump is an authoritarian and anti-democrat.
• Trump engenders and actively nurtures a cult of personality.
• Trump hates and castigates the Other (especially immigrants).
• Trump actually fomented an anti-democratic coup.
• Trump is willing to become a dictator and end democracy in America.

One way, however, in which Trump is not like a fascist is that he seems genuinely uninterested in wars of conquest. He also doesn’t seem to get off on violence and killing people.

Why DeSantis is not an actual fascist

• DeSantis has no equivalent to “MAGA,” and I don’t see any sign that he thinks in these terms. I don’t think he’s much of an ideologue or political theorizer. He is using Trumpist stunts to stoke the base and “own the libs,” but he doesn’t talk like Trump.
• DeSantis is an authoritarian a la Nixon, but my impression is that he is not anti-democracy and believes in the rules of our country.
• DeSantis has no charisma and therefore cannot create a cult of personality, but he doesn’t really seem to want one, either. He doesn’t seem narcissistic and ego-driven like Trump (that doesn’t mean he isn’t a bully and a dick–he is).
• While the migrant trafficking stunt was cruel and mean, DeSantis doesn’t do the whole Othering thing very skillfully or consistently. I don’t think his heart is really in it.
• I don’t think DeSantis wants to be dictator or would accept it if it were offered to him. I think he wants to be the first Republican president since Ronald Reagan to be seen as successful and advance a conservative agenda based on law and order and “Christian values.” So yeah, like Nixon but with lots and lots of Jesus.

If one wishes to call DeSantis as a fascist as a pejorative, I don’t have a big objection to that. The word has long been used in that way to criticize wingnuts (which DeSantis definitely is). But I think that thinking that DeSantis is a fascist weakens our assessment of the enemy a bit, since it can degrade our understanding of his motivations. DeSantis really, really wants to be president, and he really, really wants to roll back the clock on gay rights while maintaining (reviving) the dumbed-down narrative of American goodness (i.e., suppressing negative narratives from Black people and others).

That’s a really bad plan for the US. But Trump would actually try to end American democracy. The two are quite different.

[RitterSport]

@Akaj

we target the people who don’t exclusively consume GOP messaging

Those people will see:

Republican: The sky is green!
Normal politician: The sky is obviously blue

Fox News and other conservative media: The sky is green!
Mainstream, supposedly liberal media: There is some controversy over the color of the sky. Some say it’s green.
Actual liberal media: Nobody watches or listens to this, if it actually exists.

[Aeschines]

@k9bfriender

@RickJay

It strikes me that DeSantis, if he is not technically a fascist already, is only a fascist in waiting because as a governor he doesn’t have control over the sort of federal/national things a fascist would have control over.

Exactly, you get a fascist government when the fascists take over. They don’t become fascists only after they have achieved power.

Keep in mind that Hitler was always running for dictator, more or less explicitly. He had his own paramilitary force, the SA, battling in the streets. Mussolini operated in a similar manner.

I think Trump and his red hat MAGA idiot brigade were as close as one could get to this in the US and still win an election. Of course, on 1/6, any remaining facade was removed.

[k9bfriender]

Other than his lack of personality, I don’t know that I agree with your assessment of DeSantis.

Your heart doesn’t need to be “in it” to do the “whole Othering thing”. If you aren’t a bigot, but cater to them, it works out the same, and assuming that he is only doing it to achieve power, and not due to his own prejudices, doesn’t make it any better.

I also don’t see why you don’t think that he would accept or work towards dictatorship. What makes you think that he’ll be happy just being president with the limitations that office has?

I guess if you want to say that he’s “only” a theocratic authoritarian for wanting to base his laws on “Christian values”, you can, but I see that as a subset of fascism, not something entirely different.

@Aeschines

But I think that thinking that DeSantis is a fascist weakens our assessment of the enemy a bit, since it can degrade our understanding of his motivations. DeSantis really, really wants to be president, and he really, really wants to roll back the clock on gay rights while maintaining (reviving) the dumbed-down narrative of American goodness (i.e., suppressing negative narratives from Black people and others).

None of that is contrary to fascism.

I’m of the other opinion. If you think that “calling names” will do more PR harm than good, if you think that for political reasons, it is better to use less charged terms, then I can agree to that perspective. But not recognizing him as the fascist that he is is what causes a degradation of understanding his motivations and the road that he wants to take the country down.

[k9bfriender]

@Aeschines

Keep in mind that Hitler was always running for dictator, more or less explicitly. He had his own paramilitary force, the SA, battling in the streets. Mussolini operated in a similar manner.

Weimar Germany didn’t have a position of dictator. Hitler ran for and won the position of Chancellor. Through political machinations he turned that position into one of a dictator.

And while you are correct that he doesn’t have the same cult of personality as Trump, there are plenty of people who would be perfectly willing to commit violence in his name.

@Aeschines

I think Trump and his red hat MAGA idiot brigade were as close as one could get to this in the US and still win an election.

The only way to prevent it from happening here is to never assume it can never happen here.

[Akaj]

@k9bfriender

@Akaj

Agreed – but I think it’s less effective to call DeSantis a fascist, authoritarian or whatever and more effective to describe what he will do if he becomes President. IOW:

• Bad: Ron DeSantis will make the USA a fascist dictatorship.
• Good: Ron DeSantis will criminalize homosexuality, just like the Nazis did.

I agree. But if we have a thread like this one, and I say that DeSantis is a fascist because he will criminalize homosexuality, that’s when the woodwork starts crawling with those who will point out that he’s not exactly like Hitler, so not a fascist.

So don’t say that. Say what he will do in terms of the ugliness it will propagate, and don’t worry about labeling it.

(And I mean that for actual politicians, not us message board geniuses. Who cares what we say here? )

[Akaj]

@Aeschines

DeSantis has no equivalent to “MAGA,”

Yet. That’s what PR firms are for.

@Aeschines

DeSantis is an authoritarian a la Nixon, but my impression is that he is not anti-democracy and believes in the rules of our country.

Until they become inconvenient for him. A lot of what he’s doing right now in Florida would be struck down as unconstitutional by any sane SCOTUS, and the immigrant busing stuff is borderline illegal.

[Aeschines]

@k9bfriender

Your heart doesn’t need to be “in it” to do the “whole Othering thing”. If you aren’t a bigot, but cater to them, it works out the same, and assuming that he is only doing it to achieve power, and not due to his own prejudices, doesn’t make it any better.

You are correct. However, since he doesn’t seem all that motivated in this direction, I think he would have difficulty sustaining it. But that kind of shit just automatically flows from Trump’s mouth; it’s how he really thinks and feels.

I also don’t see why you don’t think that he would accept or work towards dictatorship. What makes you think that he’ll be happy just being president with the limitations that office has?

I think that’s a “S/he who posits must prove” situation. I don’t think we generally assume that politicians harbor such ambitions, and I am saying I do not see anything from DeSantis that suggests that.

I guess if you want to say that he’s “only” a theocratic authoritarian for wanting to base his laws on “Christian values”, you can, but I see that as a subset of fascism, not something entirely different.

There is a pretty good consensus on what fascism is among political scientists, so it’s not really a matter of personal opinion. I have tried to hew fairly close to that definition in making my assessments. Even if I’m wrong, however, I do think we should try to use the word more carefully than is often done.

What Is Fascism?

None of that is contrary to fascism.

What’s contrary to fascism is that, in my opinion, DeSantis really wants to be president in the American system and be appreciated for having “succeeded” (in conservative terms) under it.

I’m of the other opinion. If you think that “calling names” will do more PR harm than good, if you think that for political reasons, it is better to use less charged terms, then I can agree to that perspective. But not recognizing him as the fascist that he is is what causes a degradation of understanding his motivations and the road that he wants to take the country down.

I am personally not too worried about how casually calling him a fascist could harm our cause. I am worried about misunderstanding DeSantis’s motivations and fighting back less effectively.

Weimar Germany didn’t have a position of dictator. Hitler ran for and won the position of Chancellor. Through political machinations he turned that position into one of a dictator.

That’s not literally correct. The Nazis formed a coalition government with conservative parties and pressured Paul Hindenburg, the president, to appoint Hitler chancellor. One did not “run” for chancellor in Weimar Germany, just as one does not run for prime minister in the UK.

I was being figurative about “running for dictator.” The explicit goal of the Nazi movement was to make Hitler Führer of Germany.

And while you are correct that he doesn’t have the same cult of personality as Trump, there are plenty of people who would be perfectly willing to commit violence in his name.

I think that’s a contradiction. DeSantis would need to have more sway over people before he told people to commit violence (or, as Trump was good at doing, suggesting or implying that people should do so). I also think it’s unproven whether DeSantis would do that.

The only way to prevent it from happening here is to never assume it can never happen here.

After 1/6 (among many other similar evils), I make no such assumption.

[nicky]

Meatball Ron is a shitbag, but not a fascist.

Fascism rejects Capitalism, it offers the capitalist class a bargain: abandon the free market in return for a baroncy in a new corporatist-neofeudal order.

(Btw Nazism isnt fascism. Nazism is lebensraum + “racial-scientific-‘antisemitsm”. It historically allied with fascism, and its early years looks like fascism. But it isnt fascism,)

[Smapti]

@nicky

Meatball Ron is a shitbag, but not a fascist.

Fascism rejects Capitalism, it offers the capitalist class a bargain: abandon the free market in return for a baroncy in a new corporatist-neofeudal order.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/27/politics/desantis-disney-reedy-creek/index.html

@Aeschines

DeSantis is an authoritarian a la Nixon, but my impression is that he is not anti-democracy and believes in the rules of our country.

Florida let them vote. Then DeSantis’s election police arrested them.

@Aeschines

While the migrant trafficking stunt was cruel and mean, DeSantis doesn’t do the whole Othering thing very skillfully or consistently.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/597215-gov-desantis-spokesperson-says-dont-say-gay-opponents-are/

@Aeschines

I don’t think DeSantis wants to be dictator or would accept it if it were offered to him.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/politics/florida-state-guard-desantis/index.html

[BeepKillBeep]

@nicky

Fascism rejects Capitalism

DeSantis Promises Florida Will Control Disney Content

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

That last one in particular has some real Sturmabteilung vibes to it, and is really what pushes DeSantis over the threshold of being ‘just’ an authoritarian bully and political opportunist, and firmly into firmly emergent fascist territory. His lack of charisma aside, he has an increasing amount of pull with the GOP as a ‘Trumpish’ candidate without the naked detriments of Trump, and barring the unexpected emergence of some unlikely challenger is almost certain to get the Republican nomination for president in the 2024 primaries.

The notion that Nazism wasn’t ‘real’ fascism is so risible I’m not sure it even bears refutation. Hitler was an early admirer of Mussolini and his and Giovanni Gentile‘s “La dottrina del fascismo” (“The Doctrine of Fascism”), and explicitly modelled not only the structure of the National Socialist Party on the Italian National Fascist Party but actually adopted similar trappings and fashions with just more of a Nordic flavor than the Roman pretensions of Il Duce. I guess you can argue that the Nazi Party itself never described itself using the explicit terminology of Fascism, but if it walks and quacks like a duck it probably isn’t a falcon.

Ron DeSantis many not have any sincere ideological beliefs, or a genuine hatred for gays, immigrants, et cetera, but he’s fully committed to being whatever kind of oppressive bigot is necessary to gain power, and following through to retain it. We may as well treat him as the fascist he is pretending to be because he’ll only grow into that role to fit like the slickly tailored suits he wears.

Stranger

[BeepKillBeep]

Let’s suppose for a moment that DeSantis isn’t a fascist, but it just an authoritarian. What should be concerning to American is:

1. That he is an authoritarian at all! That’s not a good thing.
2. At least, two significant GOP leaders in a row (Trump and DeSantis) have been authoritarian with at least of hint of fascism,
3. It is quite clear the direction the GOP is going. This is not a case of the right standing still and the left moving further left. The GOP are headed in the direction of fascism, even if they are not there (and I believe they are there).

If you’re voting Republican, then you’re voting for this dire move to the right.

[Jackmannii]

Fox News reports that Joe and Jill Biden are under fire for ordering the same entree at a restaurant. Now if that isn’t incipient fascism, I don’t know what is.

President Biden, first lady's restaurant order sparks strong reactions

Pretty soon we will all have to order the same woke entree.

[Smapti]

@Jackmannii

Fox News reports that Joe and Jill Biden are under fire for ordering the same entree at a restaurant.

God help us all if he was wearing a tan suit at the time.

[Gyrate]

“I have honestly never heard of a couple - married or otherwise - who order the EXACT same at a restaurant”

My wife and I independently select the same items on menus all the time, even in restaurants we’ve never been in before. It’s kind of a running joke. But we like the same things - it’s not a surprise that we make similar choices.

[Moriarty]

I don’t know if he’s a fascist, but he’s certainly a hypocrite. I thought Ron was all about outlawing men wearing high heels.

[k9bfriender]

@Aeschines

You are correct. However, since he doesn’t seem all that motivated in this direction, I think he would have difficulty sustaining it.

He doesn’t have to personally sustain it, he just has to allow people into his administration that gladly will.

@Aeschines

But that kind of shit just automatically flows from Trump’s mouth; it’s how he really thinks and feels.

I actually don’t think that Trump was any more racist than your average white suburban. But he gladly catered to the racists and bigots for his personal gain.

I don’t think that’s better, BTW, in fact, I think that’s worse. Racism from ignorance can be cured, but racism from self interest can’t be.

@Aeschines

I think that’s a “S/he who posits must prove” situation. I don’t think we generally assume that politicians harbor such ambitions, and I am saying I do not see anything from DeSantis that suggests that.

Before 2016, I don’t think that we did. Now, we should be vigilant about it. I have seen no limits to the ambitions of DeSantis, I have seen him extend and abuse the powers of the governorship in order to harm minorities and punish those who disagree with him politically.

Waiting to see how he will use the powers of the presidency for proof that he will abuse them is waiting until it is too late.

Now, am I saying that he will rename the office of the presidency a dictatorship? Probably not. However, with a cooperative SCOTUS behind him, I think that he will explore the very limits of unitary executive power, and find those limits to be quite extensive. Unless both houses of congress are united against him, there will be no check to his power, and even then their redresses would be limited.

@Aeschines

What’s contrary to fascism is that, in my opinion, DeSantis really wants to be president in the American system and be appreciated for having “succeeded” (in conservative terms) under it.

In my opinion, he wants power, and will take whatever power he can however he can. Would he settle for being president with the powers and limits to the presidency we traditionally have taken for granted? He probably would, if that was what he could get. Where we seem to disagree is whether he would settle for those limits if he didn’t have to.

@Aeschines

I am personally not too worried about how casually calling him a fascist could harm our cause. I am worried about misunderstanding DeSantis’s motivations and fighting back less effectively.

@Aeschines

I am personally not too worried about how casually calling him a fascist could harm our cause. I am worried about misunderstanding DeSantis’s motivations and fighting back less effectively.

I don’t see how anyone is misunderstanding his motivations here. I see a man motivated by a pursuit of power, with no ethical qualms on how to get it or how to use it. I’d say the real danger is in underestimating his motivations, and believing that he would refuse to accept more power if it is available to him.

@Aeschines

That’s not literally correct. The Nazis formed a coalition government with conservative parties and pressured Paul Hindenburg, the president, to appoint Hitler chancellor. One did not “run” for chancellor in Weimar Germany, just as one does not run for prime minister in the UK.

While I simplified the process, I do understand that. The point was that the office that Hitler took was not the same office that it became under him.

@Aeschines

I was being figurative about “running for dictator.” The explicit goal of the Nazi movement was to make Hitler Führer of Germany.

And the goal of the Republican party is to make their nominee an authoritarian ruler.

@Aeschines

I think that’s a contradiction. DeSantis would need to have more sway over people before he told people to commit violence (or, as Trump was good at doing, suggesting or implying that people should do so). I also think it’s unproven whether DeSantis would do that.

People like to commit violence against people that they don’t like. They don’t need to be inspired, they just need to be given permission. Trump may have inspired the Jan 6th insurrection, but DeSantis won’t need to.

@Aeschines

After 1/6 (among many other similar evils), I make no such assumption.

Even before Jan 6th, I had come to the assumption that this creeping authoritarianism needs to be actively defended against, and relying on traditions and institutions to maintain our democratic form of government will fail.

[BeepKillBeep]

But was he wearing a tan suit? -ninjaed-

[Aeschines]

Nice debate. To be clear, this is academic. DeSantis is an odious man who should never be let near the presidency. But in the spirit of debate…

@k9bfriender

He doesn’t have to personally sustain it, he just has to allow people into his administration that gladly will.

Trump was good at this. I’m not sure DeSantis is.

I actually don’t think that Trump was any more racist than your average white suburban. But he gladly catered to the racists and bigots for his personal gain.

I don’t think that’s better, BTW, in fact, I think that’s worse. Racism from ignorance can be cured, but racism from self interest can’t be.

I think you are correct on this point. Trump doesn’t really believe in anything, including racism.

Before 2016, I don’t think that we did. Now, we should be vigilant about it.

Agreed.

Now, am I saying that he will rename the office of the presidency a dictatorship? Probably not. However, with a cooperative SCOTUS behind him, I think that he will explore the very limits of unitary executive power, and find those limits to be quite extensive. Unless both houses of congress are united against him, there will be no check to his power, and even then their redresses would be limited.

Yeah, I think he will try lots of authoritarian shit and divide the country even further.

In my opinion, he wants power, and will take whatever power he can however he can. Would he settle for being president with the powers and limits to the presidency we traditionally have taken for granted? He probably would, if that was what he could get. Where we seem to disagree is whether he would settle for those limits if he didn’t have to.

And how much can he get other people on board–the right people–to support him? I don’t intuit he has particular skill in that area. He will also have a different kind of opposition to deal with than Trump had, since we’ve been warned by Trump.

I don’t see how anyone is misunderstanding his motivations here. I see a man motivated by a pursuit of power, with no ethical qualms on how to get it or how to use it. I’d say the real danger is in underestimating his motivations, and believing that he would refuse to accept more power if it is available to him.

I agree that he craves power. I do think he would have ethical qualms about this and that, however, since I don’t think DeSantis is an amoral sociopath like Trump. He would, I believe, actually use power in the service of the principles he believes in, whereas Trump does everything in the service of Trump alone.

And the goal of the Republican party is to make their nominee an authoritarian ruler.

I guess the question is whether Republicans have sat in a room and openly said to each other that that’s their goal. My guess is that it has happened at various levels of power and with varying levels of explicitness. But I would also guess that top GOP leadership has not done so, and certain people, such as Mitch McConnell, would vigorously oppose it. Thus, I would say it’s a mixed, ambivalent bag with respect to direction. (Basically, I think the party is completely rudderless and couldn’t pull a coup off now if it tried.)

People like to commit violence against people that they don’t like. They don’t need to be inspired, they just need to be given permission. Trump may have inspired the Jan 6th insurrection, but DeSantis won’t need to.

It’s true that charisma-free leaders stage coups all the time. But we are talking about dudes in military juntas and whatnot. Without that, you really need the kind of thing that Trump was doing in order to foment 1/6. I.e., you need a white supremacist whisperer like Trump.

Even before Jan 6th, I had come to the assumption that this creeping authoritarianism needs to be actively defended against, and relying on traditions and institutions to maintain our democratic form of government will fail.

I would say that they have already failed: Trump and the current out of control Supreme Court represent significant failures. So we need to repair and fortify our system at this point.

I think, however, that Trump was and DeSantis would be the wrong person to make an authoritarian coup succeed. Had Trump been a better planner, he could have pulled it off, since he did a lot of things right, such as surrounding himself with people who would have gone along with his plan and facilitated it, as well as raising a shadow army of white supremacist authoritarian militants.

I don’t see DeSantis as having that skill set, but yes, we should be vigilant, and if he becomes president, a lot of shit will get fucked up in DeSantis’s own particular way.