# Ron Howard refuses to remove gay joke despite protets **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 2, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212 "2010-11-02T14:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/61 "2010-11-02T21:07:15Z")
> [@](#): > > “It is a slight moment in ‘The Dilemma’ meant to demonstrate an aspect of our lead character’s personality, and we never expected it to represent our intentions or the point of view of the movie or those of us who made it”. I think Ron Howard said all that needed to be said about it. I honestly think anyone protesting this has made themselves look like an idiot. It would seem like they’re essentially saying, “you can’t have a character in a movie who does x.” Movies obviously need a wide range of characters (from saintly types to pure evil to all the shades of gray in between including Tommy Boy-esque characters that start off really dumb and low brow but grow up in the end and etc.), and protesting a character is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![jordanr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@jordanr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jordanr2)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/62 "2010-11-02T21:11:39Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Nonetheless the tendency of the liberal left to demand censorship for fear of hurting someone’s feelings alarms me. Censorship has nothing to do with it (Howard himself made an argument about “censorship” and was just as wrong in doing so). Ron Howard has the choice to leave a stupid turn of phrase in his film and be rightly thought a boor, or to take it out. His call, but no one’s censoring him. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/63 "2010-11-02T21:18:11Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > Ron Howard has the choice to leave a stupid turn of phrase in his film and be rightly thought a boor, or to take it out. Right. Just like those friggin’ Nazis who made _Judgement at Nuremburg_ and those sociopathic thugs who made _American History X_. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/64 "2010-11-02T21:18:31Z")
I must be really out of touch, I actually think that people should be able to make movies where the characters say even indisputably offensive things, like people in real life do sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/65 "2010-11-02T21:20:30Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I must be really out of touch, I actually think that people should be able to make movies where the characters say even indisputably offensive things, like people in real life do sometimes. But as we know, every lead character in a film represents the true beliefs and values of the producers/directors/writers/actors involved. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/66 "2010-11-02T22:10:02Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Oh dear… > > I have- please pardon the immodesty- substantial proof that I’m a man, I just don’t define ‘manly’ attributes the same. In addition, while far from all gay men are effeminate, most of the effeminate gay guys I know are a whole lot tougher than you might suspect, as are most women. Very few effeminate gay men are vegetarian, but since that invites all kinds of jokes about the things they put into their mouths I’ll leave it there. Hmm, maybe “guyness” is more accurate for what I meant than manliness. It’s not like a test of what you are really made of, and whether you could defeat a shark with your bare hands. Here are some things that are group A: Caring about feelings, sensitivity, flowers, color matching, operas. Some things that are group B: To drink beer, eat meat, arm wrestle, watch football etc. With “manly”, I meant things like in group B. So they are not manly in the real sense of toughness, where things actually matter, but in an everyday way. There’s something about choosing based on power. Like, a huge energy-consuming car is group B, while a small electric car is group A. Cutting your hedge with a huge power tool is group B, while trimming your roses with a small pair of scissors is group A. Now what words should we choose to make these distinctions? I guess we could call group A things “girly”. But then, wouldn’t that be an insult to girls? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/67 "2010-11-02T22:28:40Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Now what words should we choose to make these distinctions? How 'bout “socially/culturally conscious”, “environmentally responsible”, “aesthetically aware” or “personally considerate” based on respective context? Or are those terms too gay for a straight older macho male like me to be using? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/68 "2010-11-02T22:30:05Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > Here are some things that are group A: > Caring about feelings, sensitivity, flowers, color matching, operas. > > Some things that are group B: > To drink beer, eat meat, arm wrestle, watch football etc. > > With “manly”, I meant things like in group B. You’re in for a _terrible_ shock if you think you might be able to make any kind of predictions about orientation _or_ gender based on membership in group “B.” ---
**Author:** ![jordanr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@jordanr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jordanr2)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/69 "2010-11-02T23:04:57Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Right. Just like those friggin’ Nazis who made _Judgement at Nuremburg_ and those sociopathic thugs who made _American History X_. So this bit of dialogue was so integral to this undoubted masterpiece of a film that it couldn’t _possibly_ be as good without it? (Also, the notion that offensive language somehow made _American History X_ better doesn’t hold water with me - that one was such a disaster, nothing could’ve saved it.) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/70 "2010-11-02T23:18:48Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I must be really out of touch, I actually think that people should be able to make movies where the characters say even indisputably offensive things, like people in real life do sometimes. It seems to be a really tiny number of people complaining and a much larger group arguing against them. Some people will complain about _anything_ - it’s their hobby. ---
**Author:** ![acetylene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@acetylene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acetylene)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/71 "2010-11-02T23:38:59Z")
As an amputee, I am REALLY offended by how all you fuckers keep using the word “lame” so casually. Actually, I’m not. You know why? In the words of a gay friend of mine “I know better than to take offense where none was intended.” It’s all so retarded 😉 ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/72 "2010-11-02T23:41:08Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > So this bit of dialogue was so integral to this undoubted masterpiece of a film that it couldn’t _possibly_ be as good without it? > > (Also, the notion that offensive language somehow made _American History X_ better doesn’t hold water with me - that one was such a disaster, nothing could’ve saved it.) That response misses my point so badly it hardly seems fair to retort, but here goes-- My point is not that Howard’s film is or isn’t at the same level of quality/artistic merit/charactersic _n_ as the films I referenced. My point was also not about the particular words used in any of the portrayals in those films. My point _ **is** _ that offensive characters in fiction and the opinions and beliefs expressed by those characters are not indicators of the “boorishness” or any other characteristic of their creators. This should be evident to even the most ardent devotee of recreational outrage. To demand that a writer (or producer) bowdlerize a flawed character’s speech is offensive and obnoxious in its own right and whoever demands this deserves whatever ridicule comes their way. ---
**Author:** ![jordanr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@jordanr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jordanr2)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/73 "2010-11-02T23:50:44Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > That’s such a humor impaired response to what I posted, it hardly seems fair to retort, but here goes-- My point is not that Howard’s film is or isn’t at the same level of quality/artistic merit/charactersic _n_ as the films I referenced. My point was also not about the particular words used in any of the portrayals in those films. > > My point _ **is** _ that offensive characters in fiction and the opinions and beliefs expressed by those characters are not indicators of the “boorishness” or any other characteristic of their creators. This should be evident to even the most ardent devotee of recreational outrage. To demand that a writer (or producer) bowdlerize a flawed character’s speech is offensive and obnoxious in its own right and whoever demands this deserves whatever ridicule comes their way. it doesn’t necessarily reflect on the creator, no, but if he’s so willing to go to the mattresses over what’s apparently a minor bit of dialogue, I just have to question his judgment overall. Obviously some people find it offensive, and at this brief passage of time this piece of dialogue comes off as a bit tone-deaf. I could be wrong, maybe Vince Vaughn making a gay joke is in fact a genuinely incisive piece of repartee that the movie couldn’t do without (and maybe Daryl Hannah calling herself Madison in _Splash_ was secretly intended as a devastating deconstruction of American constitutional history), I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/74 "2010-11-02T23:57:56Z")
> [@acetylene](#): > > As an amputee, I am REALLY offended by how all you fuckers keep using the word “lame” so casually. > > Actually, I’m not. You know why? In the words of a gay friend of mine “I know better than to take offense where none was intended.” > > It’s all so retarded 😉 The thing is, even if you aren’t personally offended by the usage, what’s still happening is that the association of gayness with crapness is becoming stronger. It’d be pretty much impossible for gay to be used as a synonym for crap/shoddy/useless and there not to be any feedback. I ask people to at least not use it around me please, so if they continue using if _after_ that, offence is intended. I wouldn’t feel offended, but I would dislike that person more, and most of us (certain trolls excluded) aren’t on an active crusade to be disliked. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/75 "2010-11-02T23:58:09Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > it doesn’t necessarily reflect on the creator, no, but if he’s so willing to go to the mattresses over what’s apparently a minor bit of dialogue, I just have to question his judgment overall. Obviously some people find it offensive, and at this brief passage of time this piece of dialogue comes off as a bit tone-deaf. I could be wrong, maybe Vince Vaughn making a gay joke is in fact a genuinely incisive piece of repartee that the movie couldn’t do without (and maybe Daryl Hannah calling herself Madison in _Splash_ was secretly intended as a devastating deconstruction of American constitutional history), I don’t know. Still missing the point. It doesn’t _matter_ if the dialogue is integral to the plot or consistent to the character, or whether it’s “incisive” or witty or inane or relevant or retarded®. It’s words coming from a character in a movie, not a fucking public service announcement. This isn’t Ron Howard’s anti-gay manifesto or corporate mission statement. Objecting to dialogue in terms of whether it might be offensive to someone who hears it is like objecting to The Three Little Pigs because the wolf is a meanie. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/76 "2010-11-03T00:27:34Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > The joke in the OP doesn’t offend me - I assume it’s meant to show the character up as an idiot. I can see how showing it (without the context of the whole film) during an anti-bullying campaign might seem a bit off. > > Whenever people say ‘gay meaning lame has nothing to do with homosexuality’ I wonder where they think the term came from? Was it just random? And when they say it doesn’t matter, I’d like them to try substituting the name of some group they care about. Like, if something’s crap then it’s ‘sooo American’ or ‘soooo David’ and so on. Associating a word with crapness does kinda make it seem like the whole word’s crap. [You tell 'em, Lizzie McGuire!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVicCD8FmMs) On a more serious note, I already don’t use “gay” as a pejorative of any kind and I (pretty successfully) discourage my teenaged daughter from doing so, but I am finding the controversy here to be a little overwrought. ---
**Author:** ![flano1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f14d63/32.png) [@flano1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flano1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/77 "2010-11-03T03:04:26Z")
Sign in background at Stewart Colbert Rally: " Homosexuality is so Gay ". Nolo contendere. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/78 "2010-11-03T03:29:12Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > I ask people to at least not use it around me please, so if they continue using if _after_ that, offence is intended. What a ridiculously egotistical statement. It’s also entirely possible that even after you ask, no one gives a shit whether or not you’re offended. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/79 "2010-11-03T05:25:28Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > it doesn’t necessarily reflect on the creator, no, but if he’s so willing to go to the mattresses over what’s apparently a minor bit of dialogue, I just have to question his judgment overall. Obviously some people find it offensive, and at this brief passage of time this piece of dialogue comes off as a bit tone-deaf. I could be wrong, maybe Vince Vaughn making a gay joke is in fact a genuinely incisive piece of repartee that the movie couldn’t do without (and maybe Daryl Hannah calling herself Madison in _Splash_ was secretly intended as a devastating deconstruction of American constitutional history), I don’t know. I would question his judgement if he did remove the minor bit if dialogue that isnt really that offensive. Let’s say Ron caves and removes this bit of minor dialogue, then some other group decides some other minor bit is offensive and he should remove it, too, because after all he caved to the other group. Then yet another group finds some other small bit of dialogue offensive and so on and so on. Then Ron doesn’t have a movie left once he caves to everyone. I think the artsy fartsy types call thus artistic integrity. It’s his movie he can put whatever he wants in it, if someone doesn’t like it they don’t have to go see it. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/80 "2010-11-03T05:25:33Z")
I’m sick and tired of these motherfucking homos and their motherfucking drama over the word ‘gay’. Won’t someone think of teh parent chaperons? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212.md?page=5)