# Ron Howard refuses to remove gay joke despite protets **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 2, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212 "2010-11-02T14:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/141 "2010-11-08T06:49:59Z")
Cute. And if that were true, the rest of us would decide whether we valued your opinion enough to respect your wishes or if we wished to continue the debate, knowing you’d be offended. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/142 "2010-11-08T06:51:08Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Well, it’s good thing that never once have I used “gay” as a synonymn for “crap”, and I think most people who use it have never assosciated it with “crap” in their internal lexikon and associatives. If some thing is crap, you just use “crap”, gay things are never “crap”, they have an elusive and effemeral quality that specifically says gay… now can “crap” be “gay”? Why yes, there certainly is that possibility. But crappieness and gayness are not the same. There are few exact synonyms. ‘Gay’ in the usage we’re talking about is used to mean something negative, unwanted in some way, with whatever nuances you consider are a part of it. I think it’s a bad thing to associate homosexuality with that. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Really? You can’t piece that puzzle together? The two posts immediately before my first post to this thread were discussing **Bo** ’s position. I guess you could say it was coincidence in the sense that directly addressing the current topic of conversation is a coincidence. You have your own opinion - why should I assume that you wanted to use someone else’s name instead of your own? Anyway, it was _Bo_ that was wondering why he was being used. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, I’m not saying that. I never accused you of anything, let alone arrogance. I accused your statement of being ego-centric. And _again_, this isn’t about me saying anything. It’s a hypothetical person speaking to another hypothetical person who doesn’t want to hear a certain word or phrase. I use “you” because you, **scifisam** , are the person who is arguing so vociferously that the word is personally offensive in this thread. If you’d rather, we can talk about how Harold Stinkfarter doesn’t want people to use the word “gay” to mean “lame”. > > I’m not asserting any “right” to say anything. I’m rejecting the ego-centric notion that your wishes, anyone’s wishes, must be followed, and that a failure to do so _must_ be because of any kind of disfavor towards you. You may simply not factor into the equation at all, to someone else. A failure to prioritize you does not mean a diss, as no one is under any obligation that I know of to consider you or your wishes. > > You can make the argument that in a civilized society they _should_ consider your wishes, but even that argument acknowledges that they don’t _have_ to. Nobody _has_ to, of course not. We’re not talking about conversations, not traffic regulations. But then the same thing goes for pretty much any part of conversation, doesn’t it? You don’t _have_ to give your interlocutor a chance to talk, but it’s generally considered rude if you don’t. I’m not going to rescind to the rest of that post because I’d simply be repeating myself. Again. You’re terrible at insults, btw; ‘Harold Stinkfarter’ would be a rather unusual name for a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/143 "2010-11-08T07:00:19Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > You’re terrible at insults, btw; ‘Harold Stinkfarter’ would be a rather unusual name for a woman. It was not an insult. It’s a fictitious name [I’ve used before on these boards before in place of “John Doe” or “Anonymous”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13087525&highlight=harold+stinkfarter#post13087525). See? There’s another case of ego-centric perception at play. ETA: It’s pretty obvious by now that my point is lost on you. Why don’t we just drop this? If you’d like to discuss the issue further, perhaps a different forum would be more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/144 "2010-11-08T07:14:30Z")
True or False? Beck is Gay. Answer that without sexual or political equivocation and prejudicial vetting. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/145 "2010-11-08T07:18:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It was not an insult. It’s a fictitious name [I’ve used before on these boards before in place of “John Doe” or “Anonymous”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13087525&highlight=harold+stinkfarter#post13087525). > > See? There’s another case of ego-centric perception at play. > > ETA: It’s pretty obvious by now that my point is lost on you. Why don’t we just drop this? If you’d like to discuss the issue further, perhaps a different forum would be more appropriate. Your point is not lost on me. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I fail to understand. I should have added a smiley-face. I didn’t think you were actually calling me that name, because I doubt you’d do that in IMHO - I was using it as a way of pointing out that I’m not male. It doesn’t bother me when people assume I’m male, but I usually get around to correcting them eventually, and you’re not the only one in this thread to do that. If you’re talking about taking this disagreement to the pit, that’s up to you - I don’t think it merits it, but, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/146 "2010-11-08T07:18:40Z")
I’m talking about the musician/vocalist, [Beck](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck)… not (Glen) Beck. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/147 "2010-11-08T07:21:00Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > True or False? > Beck is Gay. > > Answer that without sexual or political equivocation and prejudicial vetting. 😕 Which Beck? The singer? The politician (Glen Beck?) I’ve no idea. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/148 "2010-11-08T07:37:00Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > 😕 Which Beck? The singer? The politician (Glen Beck?) I’ve no idea. What’s your point? Like I said, answer that without any leads or prejudices from me. I don’t know… you tell me? I think he is definitely Gay… not homosexual…just Gay. True. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/149 "2010-11-08T07:43:22Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > If you’re talking about taking this disagreement to the pit, that’s up to you - I don’t think it merits it, but, whatever. No, I didn’t mean the Pit. I was thinking it was more a debate we were having than a shouting match. A disagreement rather than a dissing, if you will. If I’d meant to insult you, it would be crystal clear. I have lots of practice at it; it’s kind of a pre-requisite skill for my line of work. But I meant no offense, and had no reason to offer any. (A dual explanation, eh, showing that yes, I do know the difference between intent and motive.) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/150 "2010-11-08T07:43:30Z")
That may help explain the disconnect, at least a little. For women, everyone deserves respect. For men, nobody deserves respect until they earn it. Generally speaking, of course; no doubt there is some overlap. I think this may play some part in the divide. **scifisam** thinks nobody should offend anyone, or rather, everyone should be mindful of everyone else. By contrast, I am a pretty typical “guy’s guy,” and from what I know of **Bo** I think he is too. The guy brain doesn’t think that way. Again, no doubt there are outliers, please spare me from the dozen guys chiming in to say “I think everyone deserves respect!” It’s a gender difference, deal with it. It’s explained pretty well in [this essay](http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm), in the section on “Earning Manhood.” Specifically: > [@](#): > > All-male groups tend to be marked by putdowns and other practices that remind everybody that there is NOT enough respect to go around, because this awareness motivates each man to try harder to earn respect. This, incidentally, has probably been a major source of friction as women have moved into the workplace, and organizations have had to shift toward policies that everyone is entitled to respect. The men hadn’t originally built them to respect everybody. > > ``` > One of the basic, most widely accepted gender differences is agency versus communion. Male agency may be partly an adaptation to this kind of social life based on larger groups, where people aren’t necessarily valued and one has to strive for respect. To succeed in the male social sphere of large groups, you need an active, agentic self to fight for your place, because it isn’t given to you and only a few will be successful. Even the male ego, with its concern with proving oneself and competing against others, seems likely to be designed to cope with systems where there is a shortage of respect and you have to work hard to get some — or else you’ll be exposed to humiliation. > > ``` The whole essay is a pretty good read, and the above quote really benefits from the context of reading the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/151 "2010-11-08T08:09:37Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Like I said, answer that without any leads or prejudices from me. I don’t know… you tell me? I think he is definitely Gay… not homosexual…just Gay. > > True. I really don’t know anything about him - I’ve no idea what you’re going on about. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, I didn’t mean the Pit. I was thinking it was more a debate we were having than a shouting match. A disagreement rather than a dissing, if you will. > > If I’d meant to insult you, it would be crystal clear. I have lots of practice at it; it’s kind of a pre-requisite skill for my line of work. > > But I meant no offense, and had no reason to offer any. (A dual explanation, eh, showing that yes, I do know the difference between intent and motive.) Woah, what line of work are you in that requires insulting people? Lots of people on here would love to get into that! I didn’t think it was a shouting match either, I just didn’t know where else you meant. > [@EllisDee](#): > > That may help explain the disconnect, at least a little. For women, everyone deserves respect. For men, nobody deserves respect until they earn it. Generally speaking, of course; no doubt there is some overlap. I think this may play some part in the divide. > > **scifisam** thinks nobody should offend anyone, or rather, everyone should be mindful of everyone else. By contrast, I am a pretty typical “guy’s guy,” and from what I know of **Bo** I think he is too. The guy brain doesn’t think that way. Again, no doubt there are outliers, please spare me from the dozen guys chiming in to say “I think everyone deserves respect!” It’s a gender difference, deal with it. It’s explained pretty well in [this essay](http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm), in the section on “Earning Manhood.” Specifically:The whole essay is a pretty good read, and the above quote really benefits from the context of reading the whole thing. I think there is something to that. FWIW, my friends and I throw insults at each other _all_ the time, normal banter like you’re talking about. But because it’s mutual and there’s a line you don’t cross, it’s not actually insulting. If someone specifically asked you not to use a certain term, for serious reasons, IMO it’s crossing a line to continue using it. I know that a lot of men would find it difficult to get away with asking their friends not to use the word gay in that way - they’d probably end up with their friends using it every second word. And those friends would be intending to cause offence - they just wouldn’t consider it important. (I don’t think it’s the biggest deal in the world, either, but it’s very easy to change precisely because it’s so trivial). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/152 "2010-11-08T08:40:34Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > FWIW, my friends and I throw insults at each other _all_ the time, normal banter like you’re talking about. But because it’s mutual and there’s a line you don’t cross, it’s not actually insulting. If someone specifically asked you not to use a certain term, for serious reasons, IMO it’s crossing a line to continue using it. I’m with you on the first part. For me and the various groups of friends I’ve had throughout my life, specifically asking not to use a term is itself crossing the line. As for the parenthetical, I’m uncomfortable with the idea that because something is trivial to change, changing that thing is expected. I should point out that long ago I stopped using the term gay to mean lame because it is offensive to gays. (That “lame” is offensive for exactly the same reason and nobody seems to care is just one of life’s little ironic treats for me.) I’m invested in the philosophical debate, not the actual term, which I agree is homophobic. I do not like being told that I have to speak a certain way and I shouldn’t sweat it because it’s trivial. That slope is too slippery for my taste. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/153 "2010-11-08T08:57:03Z")
I’m a guy and if asked to stop using the word I would take in to account a few options: If you were actually gay, I would stop using it around you as best I could If you were a male stranger, I would determine if I cared or not and go from there If you were a female, I would stop using it depending on how hot you were If you were male and a friend, I would use it every other sentence until you stopped caring, cried, or punched me. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/154 "2010-11-08T09:18:14Z")
I do have to say in regards to snowboarder’s opinion. If you ask me not to use the word and I continue to use the word I know full well what I am doing. I had to look at you and choose whether to respect your wishes. The fact that you asked me to stop is already one strike against you. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/155 "2010-11-08T10:33:54Z")
Opie is Gay. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/156 "2010-11-08T16:49:54Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Well, it’s good thing that never once have I used “gay” as a synonymn for “crap”, and I think most people who use it have never assosciated it with “crap” in their internal lexikon and associatives. If some thing is crap, you just use “crap”, gay things are never “crap”, they have an elusive and effemeral quality that specifically says gay… now can “crap” be “gay”? Why yes, there certainly is that possibility. But crappieness and gayness are not the same. Have you read this thread? The very joke being cited is that “gay” means “homosexual” but it also means “lame” as in “crap”. Several people have posted in this thread that they use gay to mean lame (i.e. crap). > [@devilsknew](#): > > True or False? > Beck is Gay. > > Answer that without sexual or political equivocation and prejudicial vetting. WTF are you posting about? I don’t know and don’t care if Beck is homosexual. I don’t know and don’t care if Beck is lame. I don’t know and don’t care if Beck is the musician or Glen Beck. I don’t know and don’t care if you think Beck is homosexual. I don’t know and don’t care if you think Beck is lame. It is totally possible to evaluate if a person is homosexual without value judgment. One is a factual determination, the other is an opinionated judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/157 "2010-11-08T20:47:07Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > [http://blog.okcupid.com/](http://blog.okcupid.com/) has a chart about what straight people like the most compared to gay people. And vice versa. > > Straight: band of brothers poker cars my boat saving private ryan hunting fishing my buddies golf sports the right woman ping pong a few beers > > Gay: > the devil wears prada britney spears mean girls kelly clarkson the color purple project runway Did you actually _read_ that article, or did you just ignore everything except that which played to your stereotypes? (For those of you who didn’t bother, it’s actually really interesting) ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/158 "2010-11-09T03:28:11Z")
Does it bother anyone else that absolutely no one seems to have a problem with the not-so-new-but-potentially-offensive use of “lame” (or “retarded”) while having a problem with the sorta-new-and-apparently-always-offensive use of “gay” as a word describing the same thing? Or that “gay” originally meant something entirely different to begin with, and now people are having problems with it changing in meaning again? Words mean exactly what speakers and listeners think they mean. It has become fairly clear that people have appropriated “gay” to become a synonym for prejudicial uses of “retarded” and “lame”, general unspecified disagreeableness but not of the sort where comparability to excrement is required and I don’t think there’s a single good word available that isn’t offensive to someone that describes the concept well. You might as well say that people shouldn’t use “gay” to mean “homosexual” anymore, and for the exact same reason. ---
**Author:** ![acetylene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@acetylene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acetylene)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/159 "2010-11-09T17:36:19Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > Does it bother anyone else that absolutely no one seems to have a problem with the not-so-new-but-potentially-offensive use of “lame” (or “retarded”) while having a problem with the sorta-new-and-apparently-always-offensive use of “gay” as a word describing the same thing? Or that “gay” originally meant something entirely different to begin with, and now people are having problems with it changing in meaning again? > > Words mean exactly what speakers and listeners think they mean. It has become fairly clear that people have appropriated “gay” to become a synonym for prejudicial uses of “retarded” and “lame”, general unspecified disagreeableness but not of the sort where comparability to excrement is required and I don’t think there’s a single good word available that isn’t offensive to someone that describes the concept well. > > You might as well say that people shouldn’t use “gay” to mean “homosexual” anymore, and for the exact same reason. This. I’m getting sick of it, to be honest. Words can have several _different_ meanings. Who is someone else to tell me which meaning I intended when I said a word? Not that I say gay or retarded very much. I am not at all offended by the use of the word lame, and I use it myself. Has anyone seen the [Hilary Duff commercial](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVicCD8FmMs)? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212/160 "2010-11-10T05:46:15Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Have you read this thread? The very joke being cited is that “gay” means “homosexual” but it also means “lame” as in “crap”. Several people have posted in this thread that they use gay to mean lame (i.e. crap). > > WTF are you posting about? > > I don’t know and don’t care if Beck is homosexual. > > I don’t know and don’t care if Beck is lame. > > I don’t know and don’t care if Beck is the musician or Glen Beck. > > I don’t know and don’t care if you think Beck is homosexual. > > I don’t know and don’t care if you think Beck is lame. > > It is totally possible to evaluate if a person is homosexual without value judgment. One is a factual determination, the other is an opinionated judgement. Or you know, there are other possibilities. Like, I don’t think Beck is homosexual or lame, but I think he’s pretty damn gay. I love Beck’s music and style and I don’t believe he is homosexual, crappy, or lame… just gay. Why, he’s even gayer than Bowie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-howard-refuses-to-remove-gay-joke-despite-protets/559212.md?page=9)