# Ron Paul: Honest or Nuts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249 "2011-09-14T03:58:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/81 "2011-09-15T05:09:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > People who sincerely believe in their cause rarely reach positions of power. George Washington didn’t believe in his cause? Hitler? David ben Gurion? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/82 "2011-09-15T05:10:04Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think it’s true for revolutionaries and such people (and I think that Bin Laden and his followers belong to this category, since their goal is to change the world). They have to believe in their cause to take all the risks associated with their endeavors. And since sometimes they succeed, they then reach positions of power. > > By the way, it seems to me that the apparent integrity and selflessness of their members has been a significant cause of the appeal of Islamist movements like the Muslim Brotherhood or the Hamas (though I wouldn’t say so for Al Qaida, for whom, IMHO, the appeal was its ability to bloody the nose of western powers). I would think so as well. If Osama hadn’t been a True Believer, he could have gained a lot of power in a lot of seemlier, and more importantly more comfortable ways. He could have done what the rest of his family does and made a killing selling the blood of the earth. He could have had a 40-stories tower in Dubai with his name on it. Instead he chose to tote an AK-47 in some dusty nowhereland, hiding in caves. He could have done like so very many fire & brimstone preachers and tasted the forbidden fruit just as he was decrying it but no, he practised what he preached. Which is not to say he couldn’t have fallen in love with power once he got it, but I don’t think it was his primary motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/83 "2011-09-15T07:25:08Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > I know Arab isn’t a synonym for Muslim, however I don’t think much good comes from bringing religion into it. You’re joking, right? I’m not the one bringing religion into it. OBL did. > [@](#): > > Of course Islam is used as a rallying cry very often, and I believe the leaders also truly believe in Islam and Jihad. However, (and it’s a big however), they would not conduct this “Jihad” if none of the Arab world was destroyed and if their civilians weren’t slaughtered. I thought you just said that you were aware that Arab wasn’t a synonym for Muslim. > [@](#): > > People growing up after seeing their families killed by the US can grow up extremely bitter, but it mightn’t be until 20 years later that they get a chance to unleash their bitterness. So you can of course point out all of these hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians killed by the US decades prior to 9/11, right? Its one thing to point to US foreign policy as a contributing factor in the 9/11 attacks; it’s quite another to make shit up. > [@](#): > > In a lot of respects, Bin Laden was quite convenient for the US to pinpoint 9/11 on, because he was very religious and he arguably didn’t have much reason to be so angry with the US (he didn’t want the US in Saudi Arabia and then was expelled himself or something). 9/11 wasn’t ‘pinned’ on OBL, he claimed credit for it. I thought you weren’t a conspiracy theorist. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/84 "2011-09-15T07:59:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ll get you started. There were 3,664 Iraqi civilians killed in the Gulf War. How many has Israel killed since it’s inception (Since we’ve given them untold billions which is why they can afford to militarily dominate the combined might of the entire arab world simultaneously)? I am not even anti-zionist but it is pretty easy to see why the perception that America is responsible for thousands of muslim deaths is out there, since it’s like, true man. Probably not “hundreds” of thousands, but do you think that matters? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/85 "2011-09-15T08:53:49Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > How many has Israel killed since it’s inception (Since we’ve given them untold billions which is why they can afford to militarily dominate the combined might of the entire arab world simultaneously)? [basic fact checking] Israel defeated its enemies in '48 and devestated its military opponents in the Six Day War with virtually no US support, at all. In fact it wasn’t until '67 that a major faction in the US realized that we could use Israel as a counterweight against the Soviet-financed Arab nations which opposed US goals in the region.[/BFC] We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/86 "2011-09-15T09:57:26Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > How many has Israel killed since it’s inception (Since we’ve given them untold billions which is why they can afford to militarily dominate the combined might of the entire arab world simultaneously)? [additional basic fact checking]The billions given to Israel were a part of the '79 Camp David Peace Accords that the US brokered between Israel and Egypt. Israel agreed to return the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for Egypt formally making peace with Israel. Egypt had cut itself off from Soviet military aid in the '73 war, and was stuck with a military equipped with Soviet weapons that it could neither get spare parts or future replacements for. The US agreed to give Egypt billions of dollars of military credits with which to buy US weaponry; to reassure Israel that this wouldn’t give Egypt a military edge billions of dollars of military credits were extended to Israel as well. The 1973 war was the last major war between Israel and its Arab neighbors, and occurred before these billions in aid.[/bfc] > [@](#): > > Probably not “hundreds” of thousands, but do you think that matters? Hmm, let me think a moment. An exaggeration by a factor of 100, yeah I think that matters. I somehow doubt that you’d be happy with your employer deciding to start paying you 1/100th of your salary, and you’d likely object to me claiming that hundreds of thousands were killed on 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/87 "2011-09-16T05:33:08Z")
In some further elaboration, in a war with “the combined might of the entire arab world simultaneously”, Israel’s true capability to achieve victory or M.A.D. does not come from an American contribution at all, but France’s nuclear program. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/88 "2011-09-16T06:15:10Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > How many has Israel killed since it’s inception (Since we’ve given them untold billions which is why they can afford to militarily dominate the combined might of the entire arab world simultaneously)? > > I am not even anti-zionist but it is pretty easy to see why the perception that America is responsible for thousands of muslim deaths is out there, since it’s like, true man. Probably not “hundreds” of thousands, but do you think that matters? I don’t know if ModernPrimate appointed you his spokesman on this one, but I’ll ask if you’re taking the position that Israel is part of the United States. If so, I’m going to have to see a cite for that. You get back to me on that and we’ll move on to the issues of body counts and apostrophes. ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/89 "2011-09-17T00:04:30Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You’re joking, right? I’m not the one bringing religion into it. OBL did. OBL brought it up, lol. You’re right, but OBL and the terrorists do not emphasize Islam like the west makes out. They only said it like Obama would say “in the name of god” or “with the help of god”. Many people bring up religion, that doesn’t mean their entire actions are always on some deluded behalf of their god. The Navy SEALS probably said something about god was with them some day. NOT that I would condone some form of brash liberal agenda forcing them to not say anything about god or religion ever again… no, that is just censoring people up and would just add extra criticism to the Arabs. Don’t censor people up, but also don’t emphasize some thing they’re saying when it is really not the reason they are doing something. > [@Dissonance](#): > > I thought you just said that you were aware that Arab wasn’t a synonym for Muslim.So you can of course point out all of these hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians killed by the US decades prior to 9/11, right? Its one thing to point to US foreign policy as a contributing factor in the 9/11 attacks; it’s quite another to make shit up. > > 9/11 wasn’t ‘pinned’ on OBL, he claimed credit for it. I thought you weren’t a conspiracy theorist. My god, so you were **actually being sarcastic** when you stated that the US has been massacreing hundreds of thousands of arab civilians over the years. That’s really, rather sad, and creepy, that you could actually be so deluded and brainwashed by **Big Daddy U.S.A.** that you would not think this about the US and all of the hundreds of thousands of Arabs its killed over the years… including its Israel which is merely a proxy state for the US. What you are basically doing is similar to denying the holocaust and is extremely offensive to me (whether it be out of ignorance or not). > [@Dissonance](#): > > 9/11 wasn’t ‘pinned’ on OBL, he claimed credit for it. I thought you weren’t a conspiracy theorist. Oh really? Then why did CNN put out this report days later: [**Bin Laden says he wasn’t behind the attack.**](http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-16/us/inv.binladen.denial_1_bin-laden-taliban-supreme-leader-mullah-mohammed-omar?_s=PM:US) \* “I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons,” bin Laden’s statement said. “I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations,” bin Laden said.\* But never let the facts get in the way of a good piece of rhetoric, eh? > [@Dissonance](#): > > Hmm, let me think a moment. An exaggeration by a factor of 100, yeah I think that matters. I somehow doubt that you’d be happy with your employer deciding to start paying you 1/100th of your salary, and you’d likely object to me claiming that hundreds of thousands were killed on 9/11. Hurr hurr… a factor of 100 hurrr hurrr… how funny. You know that there were more than 1,000 arab civilians killed by the US in the 20th century, right? (let’s not even speak about the gross deformaties, radiation, cancer, legless children and radiactive poisoning they left in Vietnam). You KNOW this, and yet you say “a factor of 100”. Who are you kidding? What sort of game are you trying to play? If you want to have a joke about something, there has to be some sort of truth to it. Even a factor of 5 would have ruined the joke. A factor of 3 and you might even get away with it given that this is the internet and you are demanding citations. There is undoubtedly over 100,000 Arabs killed by the US and/or Israel in the 20th century. Hell, there must already be over twice that amount in this century and we’ve just started it: [_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties\_of\_the\_Iraq\_War_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/90 "2011-09-17T00:13:46Z")
Of course, Bin Laden did claim he was the one behind it afterwards, but that was after the US painted it as him being behind it anyway. Everyone knows all of this, it is why I said it. Everyone who is in any way interested in world affairs knows Bin Laden denied the attacks at one point. This forum has a lot of highly intelligent and knowledgeable people in it, and frankly you stick out like a sore thumb. “quit making shit up”… cop on. You’re making pro-US militants look like an even bigger joke than they are. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/91 "2011-09-17T00:15:13Z")
I’m assuming that your claim that there’s radioactive poison in Vietnam is a fact in the same sense your other facts are? ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/92 "2011-09-17T00:32:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m assuming that your claim that there’s radioactive poison in Vietnam is a fact in the same sense your other facts are? :smack: Little Nemo, I am trying to have a serious discussion here. I assume that people have some elements of basic knowledge about the material they’re discussing when they come on a forum. Please go and educate yourself some bit. Get a few really general books on US war history, or even just spend a long time reading on the web. You cannot just read an article here and there, watch CNN occasionally and assume you can come in and contradict others because you never heard something they’re trying to tell you. I’m not here to be your loving teacher or parent, who will tell you a bit about the world and then when you ask questions, provide you with all sorts of nice links and more information about it. It’s sad if trolls who are interested only in rhetoric plague this place as well as I really liked some of the posts here. Please go on some other type of forum where you can play your game of coming out with the phrases like “quit making shit up” when it is not true at all… but please keep away from serious forums where you need some information more than you have to take part in the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/93 "2011-09-17T01:08:01Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > I did not, nor I ever will. I have no time for Republican fodder. > > Your interpretation of his comments is not very useful. No Republican will ever admit to the culpability of US foreign policy in causing 9/11. It’s a political suicide. Your “pretty much” may fly on this forum but it is certainly not the point of his comments for the voting public of the next Pres election. Except this is pretty much what Ron Paul said here today. > [@gatorslap](#): > > I don’t think our culture has much, if anything, to do with it. They certainly didn’t object to our culture when we were covertly helping them drive out the atheist Soviets in Afghanistan. Nor are they really attacking places like Japan or the Scandinavian countries, and if those countries aren’t antithetical to radical Islamism, I don’t know what is. There have been terrorist attacks in Scandinavia-such as one in Stockholm last year. > [@](#): > > Soviet rule in Afghanistan (if sustained) certainly would have secularized the country a great deal and granted women’s rights, law and order, etc. The USA didn’t care about that stuff; we just wanted to undermine communism. Ironically enough, I think successful Soviet control of Afghanistan would’ve been better for the US. It’d be just oppression using the _Communist Manifesto_ instead of the Koran to justify itself. Not to mention the Mujahadden included moderates not just Taliban. > [@Marley23](#): > > He said nothing about carpet bombing. It’s true the United States has been at war in Iraq for almost a decade. The fact that it’s not carpet bombing is beside Paul’s point. Maybe I read it wrong but I thought he said to the effect that many Iraqis died from bombings. > [@](#): > > No, he meant that the war and the ensuing chaos killed hundreds of thousands of people. It also displaced a couple of million more. This stuff is really beyond dispute. Sadly true. > [@](#): > > That’s not the true. It’s also true that the U.S. has been at war with Iraq for nearly a decade, and it’s absolutely true that U.S. soldiers in Saudi Arabia were a major grievance - arguably even the chief grievance - for Al Qaeda. By arguing against these things, _which are plainly true and beyond dispute_, you’ve compromised your credibility in making this argument. It’s true that Islamic fundamentalists regard the U.S. as decadent and disgusting, but the whole “they hate us for our freedom” thing was always nonsense. I’m not sure this responds to what Paul is saying either, but I can’t tell from the partial quote. That is why is say both are factors. [QUOTE] \ > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Paul is more accurate than the rest of his party on the motivation behind 9/11. While bin Laden may have been deeply offended by Western secularism, I very much doubt that he could convince so many people to die to combat it. It seems to me that the presence of Western troops in Saudi Arabia would be much more of a motivation for the guys who actually ran the planes into the buildings. The notion that “they hate us for our freedoms” begs the question of why would only one Western nation be singled out for that reason? Because we are the most powerful and Spain, Britain, Sweden, and so on all have suffered terrorist attacks. > [@ModernPrimate](#): > > OP, I think you are highly misinformed. > > 9/11 happened because the US have been killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Arab civilians for decades. From what war or whatnot? From the sanctions on Iraq, from our support for Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/94 "2011-09-17T02:21:00Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > OBL brought it up, lol. You’re right, but OBL and the terrorists do not emphasize Islam like the west makes out. They only said it like Obama would say “in the name of god” or “with the help of god”. Oh I see. They justify their actions in the name of god, or with the help of god, quote the Quran, but it’s not actually religious. Gotcha. I guess Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson weren’t invoking religion either when they blamed 9/11 on liberals and homosexuals for invoking god’s wrath at America. > [@](#): > > NOT that I would condone some form of brash liberal agenda forcing them to not say anything about god or religion ever again… no, that is just censoring people up and would just add extra criticism to the Arabs. Umm.. Arab. Muslim. Not the same thing. I thought you said you understood this. > [@](#): > > That’s really, rather sad, and creepy, that you could actually be so deluded and brainwashed by **Big Daddy U.S.A.** that you would not think this about the US and all of the hundreds of thousands of Arabs its killed over the years… including its Israel which is merely a proxy state for the US. > > What you are basically doing is similar to denying the holocaust and is extremely offensive to me (whether it be out of ignorance or not). Funny, you making shit up is quite offensive to me. Are you going to provide any cite that the US killed hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians in the decades before 9/11 or admit you’re making shit up out of whole cloth? And no, moving goalposts to ‘Arabs’ instead of ‘innocent Arab civilians’’ and ‘the US’ to ‘the US and it’s proxy Israel’ doesn’t count, nor does anything post-9/11. By the way, referring to Israel as a proxy state of the US just demonstrates how deeply you are ignorant on this topic. > [@](#): > > Oh really? Then why did CNN put out this report days later: > > Bin Laden says he wasn’t behind the attack. > [@](#): > > Of course, Bin Laden did claim he was the one behind it afterwards, but that was after the US painted it as him being behind it anyway. Make up your mind. This is as bad as your understanding of the difference between Arab and Muslim. > [@](#): > > You know that there were more than 1,000 arab civilians killed by the US in the 20th century, right? (let’s not even speak about the gross deformaties, radiation, cancer, legless children and radiactive poisoning they left in Vietnam). > > You KNOW this, and yet you say “a factor of 100”. Who are you kidding? What sort of game are you trying to play?There is undoubtedly over 100,000 Arabs killed by the US and/or Israel in the 20th century. Hell, there must already be over twice that amount in this century and we’ve just started it: [_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties\_of\_the\_Iraq\_War_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) I don’t know which is sadder. You trying to move the goalposts from your absurd claim of hundreds of thousands of innocent Arab civilians killed by the US in the decades before 9/11, or that you think the US left radioactive poisoning in Vietnam. Two things should have come to mind in your cite: one is that it is casualties of the 2003 war, which didn’t happen in the decades before 2001, and the other is that it lists estimates of casualties caused by all sides in Iraq in a civil war, not Iraqis killed by the US. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/95 "2011-09-17T02:50:51Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > :smack: > > Little Nemo, I am trying to have a serious discussion here. I assume that people have some elements of basic knowledge about the material they’re discussing when they come on a forum. > > Please go and educate yourself some bit. Get a few really general books on US war history, or even just spend a long time reading on the web. You cannot just read an article here and there, watch CNN occasionally and assume you can come in and contradict others because you never heard something they’re trying to tell you. > > I’m not here to be your loving teacher or parent, who will tell you a bit about the world and then when you ask questions, provide you with all sorts of nice links and more information about it. > > It’s sad if trolls who are interested only in rhetoric plague this place as well as I really liked some of the posts here. > > Please go on some other type of forum where you can play your game of coming out with the phrases like “quit making shit up” when it is not true at all… but please keep away from serious forums where you need some information more than you have to take part in the discussion. I’m not the one with the problem here. I actually am familiar with history which is why I’m not accepting most of what you’re saying. I don’t know if you’re intentionally lying or if you’re delusional but the things you’ve claimed aren’t true. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/96 "2011-09-17T03:28:59Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > It’s sad if trolls who are interested only in rhetoric plague this place as well as I really liked some of the posts here. Do not call other posters trolls on the SDMB outside The BBQ Pit. You should also refrain from giving orders to other posters on the manner in which they may post. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Funny, you making shit up is quite offensive to me. Do not accuse other posters of lying, (in whatever manner you phrase it), in Great Debates. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/97 "2011-09-17T07:30:57Z")
Can’t he be both, like the late Earl Warren? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/98 "2011-09-17T12:52:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m assuming that your claim that there’s radioactive poison in Vietnam is a fact in the same sense your other facts are? > [@ModernPrimate](#): > > :smack: > > Little Nemo, I am trying to have a serious discussion here. I assume that people have some elements of basic knowledge about the material they’re discussing when they come on a forum. > > Please go and educate yourself some bit. Get a few really general books on US war history, or even just spend a long time reading on the web. You cannot just read an article here and there, watch CNN occasionally and assume you can come in and contradict others because you never heard something they’re trying to tell you. > > I’m not here to be your loving teacher or parent, who will tell you a bit about the world and then when you ask questions, provide you with all sorts of nice links and more information about it. > > It’s sad if trolls who are interested only in rhetoric plague this place as well as I really liked some of the posts here. > > Please go on some other type of forum where you can play your game of coming out with the phrases like “quit making shit up” when it is not true at all… but please keep away from serious forums where you need some information more than you have to take part in the discussion. That’s not his job, it’s your job to defend your positions with facts. The more you go on like this, without fact to defend your position, the more respect you lose. Much like Ron Paul himself, now that I reflect on it. ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/99 "2011-09-17T22:43:15Z")
My mistake, I somehow put my response to this topic in [_this thread_](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14265146&postcount=95) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249/100 "2011-09-17T23:39:16Z")
> [@So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/95): > > Frankly, I think 9/11 was a good thing and that the US deserved it. I think Barack Obama should be hunted down and shot, like Bin Laden was. And this, of course, is why sometimes it pays to read a post backwards. > [@So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/95): > > [http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why\_they\_hate\_us\_ii\_how\_many\_muslims\_has\_the\_us\_killed\_in\_the\_past\_30\_years](http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/30/why_they_hate_us_ii_how_many_muslims_has_the_us_killed_in_the_past_30_years) 1. You’re going to hang your hat on Stephen “The Zionists Are Hiding Under My Bed!” Walt’s back-of-the-envelope math that’s uncited, unsourced, and unsubstantiated? Okay… 2. Even then, the total for pre-2001 deaths among Muslim civilians is actually set at about 3800 by Walt, with roughly 300 being from the disaster that was the Vincennes Affair and 3500 coming from the global coalition that fought against Iraq’s war of aggression against another Muslim nation. The proof of Walt’s desperation is that he tries to include sanctions against Iraq in the mix which UNSCR 661 was approved by a supermajority of nations involved and only had a handful of abstentions, and even then was about protecting the region from Sadaam’s military ambitions. > [@So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/95): > > This is not even counting Israel, which by the pro-Israeli’s own arguments is a US base and outpost in the middle east. I don’t know why you’re throwing off the idea that Israel is a proxy state of the US… that’s what the US claims it is… their number 1 ally in the middle east. At best, bombastic bluster and bullshit. Nobody who has clue 1 calls Israel a US base or a US outpost, as it is neither. One might note that you’re also using fictional “pro-Israelis’ “ arguments to bolster your bluster. You’re also egregiously abusing language to the point where you claim that saying a nation is our strongest ally means that it’s our “proxy state”. That’s an absurdity heaped high on counter-factual claims, and it evinces that your argument cannot be taken at face value. > [@So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/95): > > Nobody has proved they used dirty bombs in Vietnam yet, but with the amount of horrific birth defects, cancer, disfigured and deformed people in Vietnam, it would be very hard to believe that there weren’t dirty bombs used. Your uncited, unsourced, non-statistical, non-medical, non-epidemiological analysis is certainly compelling. Even if we were to accept that there were mutagenic, carcinogenic compounds introduced into the environment, that’s still not proof of your original claim, which you have yet to cite or substantiate. > [@So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/95): > > The UN are still trying to deny that they are using dirty bombs in Libya. If you cannot cleave to basic factual accuracy, then your entire argument is tainted. DU is not a “dirty bomb” any more than a close ally is a “proxy state”. You’re also wildly incorrect about the actual health risks of DU. [ > [@](#): > > • Under most circumstances, use of DU will make a negligible contribution to the overall natural background levels of uranium in the environment. Probably the greatest potential for DU exposure will follow conflict where DU munitions are used. > • A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) report giving field measurements taken around selected impact sites in Kosovo (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) indicates that contamination by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local populations was considered to be very low. > […] > • In a number of studies on uranium miners, an increased risk of lung cancer was demonstrated, but this has been attributed to exposure from radon decay products. Lung tissue damage is possible leading to a risk of lung cancer that increases with increasing radiation dose. However, because DU is only weakly radioactive, very large amounts of dust (on the order of grams) would have to be inhaled for the additional risk of lung cancer to be detectable in an exposed group. Risks for other radiation-induced cancers, including leukaemia, are considered to be very much lower than for lung cancer. > • Erythema (superficial inflammation of the skin) or other effects on the skin are unlikely to occur even if DU is held against the skin for long periods (weeks). > • No consistent or confirmed adverse chemical effects of uranium have been reported for the skeleton or liver. > • No reproductive or developmental effects have been reported in humans. > • Although uranium released from embedded fragments may accumulate in the central nervous system (CNS) tissue, and some animal and human studies are suggestive of effects on CNS function, it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from the few studies reported. > […] > For the general population, neither civilian nor military use of DU is likely to produce exposures to DU significantly above normal background levels of uranium. Therefore, individual exposure assessments for DU will normally not be required. Exposure assessments based on environmental measurements may, however, be needed for public information and reassurance. > […] > There are no specific means to decrease the absorption of uranium from the gastrointestinal tract or lungs. Following severe internal contamination, treatment in special hospitals consists of the slow intravenous transfusion of isotonic 1.4 % sodium bicarbonate to increase excretion of uranium. DU levels in the human, however, are not expected to reach a value that would justify intravenous treatment any more than dialysis. ]([http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/](http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-honest-or-nuts/596249.md?page=6)