# Ron Paul, pros/cons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 9, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888 "2012-01-09T03:49:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/201 "2012-01-11T21:16:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I just threw that in because it was more effective than me trying fumble my way through an explanation of my position. If you have a reasonable argument for why the quoted position isn’t valid, why are you dodging the content? I’m not “dodging the content”. You were being pressured to explain your rather idiotic claim that had the South been allowed to secede by throwing out a quote of a book from a fairly obscure economist working at a fifth rate university and made a statement which clearly seemed to imply that this economist’s opinions were in the academic mainstream. > [@](#): > > **WillFarnaby** > I don’t think this view is so unorthodox. Hummel’s claim that slavery would have ended in an independent CSA is certainly a highly unorthodox view, his claim that the North would have become “a haven” for fugitive slaves shows either gross ignorance and a willful desire to mislead his readers, and his view that present day Americans are “enslaved” by their government(a claim he makes in the book) is very much not a mainstream belief. Now, please explain why his views are actually “orthodox” within academia. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/202 "2012-01-11T21:19:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I understand that. I would rather have a well run charity using my dollars overseas than have ham-fisted bureaucrats channeling money through corrupt foreign-government officials. Charities have to deal with those problems, too. Unfortunately humanitarian aid is very complicated and difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/203 "2012-01-11T21:21:38Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Some context: [www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7RnlPQCKBQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7RnlPQCKBQ) towards the end That’s already been explained. Now, you seem to want to excuse Paul for screaming “that man is a queer” after being led to believe that he was in the presence of a gay man propositioning him. Now, he certainly had reasons to be uncomfortable with the way Bruno was treating him, but a man who’d just been mugged or carjacked would have far, far greater reason to be upset. By the standard you’re setting, we shouldn’t be concerned if a 911 tape was produced of Paul calling the police to report how he’d just been robbed by “a nigger”. Is that your position, that you have no problems with Paul if after being robbed he’d screamed, “Help, some nigger just stole my wallet!” ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/204 "2012-01-11T21:37:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not “dodging the content”. > > You were being pressured to explain your rather idiotic claim that had the South been allowed to secede by throwing out a quote of a book from a fairly obscure economist working at a fifth rate university and made a statement which clearly seemed to imply that this economist’s opinions were in the academic mainstream. > > Hummel’s claim that slavery would have ended in an independent CSA is certainly a highly unorthodox view, his claim that the North would have become “a haven” for fugitive slaves shows either gross ignorance and a willful desire to mislead his readers, and his view that present day Americans are “enslaved” by their government(a claim he makes in the book) is very much not a mainstream belief. > > Now, please explain why his views are actually “orthodox” within academia. > > Thanks I don’t give two shits about whether the guy is respected in academia nor do i care what are some other claims in the book. I mentioned Garrison and said I didn’t think it was unorthodox. Once again you dodge the content my saying he “shows gross ignorance”. What a scathing indictment coming from some cat on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/205 "2012-01-11T21:41:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s already been explained. > > Now, you seem to want to excuse Paul for screaming “that man is a queer” after being led to believe that he was in the presence of a gay man propositioning him. > > Now, he certainly had reasons to be uncomfortable with the way Bruno was treating him, but a man who’d just been mugged or carjacked would have far, far greater reason to be upset. > > By the standard you’re setting, we shouldn’t be concerned if a 911 tape was produced of Paul calling the police to report how he’d just been robbed by “a nigger”. > > Is that your position, that you have no problems with Paul if after being robbed he’d screamed, “Help, some nigger just stole my wallet!” Ok we get it. He’s a homophobe. A 76 year old man who is uncomfortable around gays in certain situations. Now do you got any more dead horses lying around? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/206 "2012-01-11T21:53:26Z")
> [@DaveBfd](#): > > I think a large con against RP is that he wants to remove mandatory vaccinations. > > The right to choose is important, but it is less important when ignorance can harm others.. This issue alone gives me ample reason to oppose Ron Paul’s candidacy, as a prime example of ideology trumping sense (he also parrots “vaccines are harmful” nonsense right out of the antivax playbook). This is probably not the place to educate **Will** further on history, but Lusitania was far from the only U.S. passenger or cargo ship sunk by German submarines in WWI (including during the period of unrestricted sub warfare that was supposed to starve _Britain_ into submission. There are good books on the subject of how Germany managed to stupidly provoke America out of its stubborn neutrality in WWI; _The Zimmermann Telegram_ is a good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/207 "2012-01-11T22:09:02Z")
Will: Can you address my earlier questions please? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/208 "2012-01-11T22:12:18Z")
I’m not going to address the whole thread, but this is one bit of ignorance that always annoys me: > [@Marley23](#): > > Paul is essentially a total isolationist. This is simply factually, objectively, wrong, in the “look it up on [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolationism), or read the [dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/isolationism)” sense. “Isolationism.” and certainly “total isolationism” would no foreign trade, no international treaties … really, no embassies even; think Japan under the [Tokugawas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku). It’s indeed basically impossible in 2011, and certainly not desirable, which is why nobody, including Ron Paul, supports it. It’s true that he’s _closer_ to being isolationist than anyone else running for president; that doesn’t mean he is one, any more than the fact that Obama is _closer_ to being a socialist than anyone else in the race means it’s fair to describe him that way. In both cases, though, the term is used by the ignorant and/or dishonest as way to cast the person out of the mainstream. Paul is as staunch a supporter of free trade as you’ll find; that alone explodes the idea that he’s an isolationist. And while’s he’s leery of multinational conclaves such as the UN, he’s all for diplomacy: as far as I know he’s the only candidate in favor of normalizing relations with Cuba, for instance. He is _non-interventionist_: i.e., he’s opposed to trying to coerce, via the military or other means, other countries into behaving as we wish. Whether or not that stance is a “pro” or a “con,” is obviously up to you. Paul on the distinction: > **[ronpaul.com](http://www.ronpaul.com/2011-12-15/ron-paul-not-an-isolationist-but-a-non-interventionist/)** ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/209 "2012-01-11T22:20:56Z")
> [@](#): > > This is probably not the place to educate **Will** further on history, but Lusitania was far from the only U.S. passenger or cargo ship sunk by German submarines in WWI (including during the period of unrestricted sub warfare that was supposed to starve _Britain_ into submission. When did I say that it was. Germans had to resort to unrestricted sub warfare because of the illegal British brigade. Anyway. The policy Wilson adopted of encouraging Americans to travel about in a war zone on belligerent ships was insane. It was an obvious attempt to sway public opinion when there was an incident. As I posted, the Germans were upfront about their policies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/210 "2012-01-11T22:21:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > When slaves sought refuge in the free North. Slaves escaping was definitely a problem for the South because failure of some of the free states to follow the Fugitive Slave Act was listed as a grievance for secession. (Oh and I said “similar to Brazil” not immitating Brazil in every way possible, sheesh) WTF!!! Slavery was never going to end without a war. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I will tell you one thing though, industrialization is the only thing that’s gonna save Africa. No, what Africa needs is peace and a democratic government. Africa is sitting on some of the richest natural resource deposits in the world, enough to build schools and higheways and airports and railroads. Enough to join the rest of the world but instead you have constant war and corruption. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If Americans are trying to elect a perfect or even near perfect person to the presidency, they have been failing for 223 years now. I hope Paul wins the Republican nomination but he is more than “flawed” > [@Marley23](#): > > Charities have to deal with those problems, too. Unfortunately humanitarian aid is very complicated and difficult. Charity is great but charitable giving drops exactly when it is needed most, during recession. Charity can accomplish great things but it could never take us to the moon, or build the national highways system or eliminate starvation in our country the way that the federeal government has. In large part the war on poverty (as it was understood during LBJ’s time) has been won. Starvation is not even on the fucking radar and its not charity that got us there. Everyone can afford to go to school, charity would never be able to ensure that. We still have poverty but the crippling poverty of the past has stayed in the past and charity could never have accomplished that. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok we get it. He’s a homophobe. A 76 year old man who is uncomfortable around gays in certain situations. Now do you got any more dead horses lying around? I hope that Ron Paul gets the Republican nomination and it doesn’t surprise me even a little bit that a 76 year old Texan might be a bit racist and homophobic. After all my 65year old NYC mother is pretty racist and homophobic while my 10 year old neice is fairly race blind and doesn’t understand why anyone would have problems with homosexuals. With that said, the reason i want him to get nominated is because now that Bachman and CAIn have left the race, I think he would be the easiest guy to beat. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/211 "2012-01-11T22:28:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok we get it. He’s a homophobe. A 76 year old man who is uncomfortable around gays in certain situations. Now do you got any more dead horses lying around? Thank you for admitting that your earlier claims that Paul only “might” be a homophobe were wrong. I’d add that he’s also clearly a racist and while I can certainly understand why middle class and upper middle class whites might not really care what he thinks about colored people, to the rest of us it’s pretty much a deal breaker. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/212 "2012-01-11T22:32:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t give two shits about whether the guy is respected in academia nor do i care what are some other claims in the book. I mentioned Garrison and said I didn’t think it was unorthodox. You’re making rather contradictory statements in this post. On the one hand you’re claiming that you don’t care how out of the mainstream his idea are yet you’re also claiming that you think they’re not “unorthodox”. Which is it? That being said, why don’t you clearly explain your own reasoning on why you think that slavery wouldn’t last in an independent CSA and why people like Eric Foner, James Stewart, and the other major historians who think that it would are wrong. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/213 "2012-01-12T00:01:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re making rather contradictory statements in this post. > > On the one hand you’re claiming that you don’t care how out of the mainstream his idea are yet you’re also claiming that you think they’re not “unorthodox”. > > Which is it? I don’t care if it is an unorthodox view and I don’t think it is. Explain the contradiction. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That being said, why don’t you clearly explain your own reasoning on why you think that slavery wouldn’t last in an independent CSA and why people like Eric Foner, James Stewart, and the other major historians who think that it would are wrong. > > Thanks How about instead of posting names you just hook me up with a small passage or article in which they refute my claims. This is one of the least amusing and helpful exchanges I’ve had on these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/214 "2012-01-12T00:12:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t care if it is an unorthodox view and I don’t think it is. Explain the contradiction. At this point you seem to be confusing being pedantic with being clever. Anyway, claiming that Hummel’s views are orthodox strikes me as rather odd. Would you mind explaining why you believe his views are rather orthodox? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/215 "2012-01-12T00:15:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Thank you for admitting that your earlier claims that Paul only “might” be a homophobe were wrong. Bob: The knives might be in the top drawer Ted: sorry Bob you’re wrong. Bob: really? Ted: Yeah. The knives are in the top drawer. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’d add that he’s also clearly a racist. Let me guess you got some lost Ali G footage to back this up? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/216 "2012-01-12T00:17:05Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > I think Ron Paul has put his finger on two fundamental issues that plague our society: the failure of the war on drugs and _ **our slavish support of Israel’s foreign policy objectives** _. Both have cost us dearly in wasted lives and treasure. I don’t buy in to Laissez-faire capitalism, but if we are to have a republican president, why not go for one that wants to make a real difference? I would as soon see us manage drugs the same way we do alcohol, and let Israel fight its own battles. The latter is not easy, as it will affect all our strategic relationships from India to Syria. _That_ is one of our two fundamental issues that “plague our society”? And have “cost us dearly in wasted lives and treasure?” Ya feel like explaining _how_ exactly that is the case? Because it sounds like the kind of statement made by anti-Semitic goons who single out Israel for no reason other than that they hold jooz to a higher standard than everyone else. Could you even describe to me what Israel’s foreign policy _is_ (without looking it up on some website)? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/217 "2012-01-12T00:17:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > At this point you seem to be confusing being pedantic with being clever. > > Anyway, claiming that Hummel’s views are orthodox strikes me as rather odd. > > Would you mind explaining why you believe his views are rather orthodox? > > Thanks After a lengthy dialogue with you I’ve yet to learn anything about why you think I’m wrong. You seem to be hung up on orthodoxy for some strange reason. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/218 "2012-01-12T00:23:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How about instead of posting names you just hook me up with a small passage or article in which they refute my claims. This is one of the least amusing and helpful exchanges I’ve had on these boards. You’re asking for links to demonstrate that Eric Foner thinks that slavery in the US would have ended peacefully without the Civil War?:dubious: Are you aware who he is? Are you next going to demand links to show that Stephen Ambrose admired Dwight Eisenhower? Anyway, I just asked you to explain why you were certain that the North would have become a Haven for slaves which it never was in our timeline. For example, I assume you know why slaves from Kentucky and Missouri didn’t flee by the dozens into Illinois, Indiana and Ohio and recognize it had absolutely nothing to do with the 1850 law regarding fugitive slaves. So please, explain why you think slavery would have collapsed so quickly in an independent CSA. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/219 "2012-01-12T00:29:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > After a lengthy dialogue with you I’ve yet to learn anything about why you think I’m wrong. You seem to be hung up on orthodoxy for some strange reason. Huh, you were the one who claimed that Mr. Hummel, a Confederate apologist, held views that were “orthodox”. I merely asked what made you say that. I find that surprising because I’m familiar with him, have several aquaintences in academia and they say he’s regarded as a crank. I was merely asking why you think his views are actually orthodox. Anyway, please explain. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/220 "2012-01-12T00:31:13Z")
It appears my questions have been intentionally ignored, twice. XD Gives me all the answers I need, though, even if indirectly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888.md?page=12)