# Ron Paul, pros/cons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 9, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888 "2012-01-09T03:49:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/221 "2012-01-12T00:41:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re asking for links to demonstrate that Eric Foner thinks that slavery in the US would have ended peacefully without the Civil War?:dubious: > > Are you aware who he is? > > Are you next going to demand links to show that Stephen Ambrose admired Dwight Eisenhower? > > Anyway, I just asked you to explain why you were certain that the North would have become a Haven for slaves which it never was in our timeline. > > For example, I assume you know why slaves from Kentucky and Missouri didn’t flee by the dozens into Illinois, Indiana and Ohio and recognize it had absolutely nothing to do with the 1850 law regarding fugitive slaves. > > So please, explain why you think slavery would have collapsed so quickly in an independent CSA. > > Thanks Anyone reading this if you happen to have any resources to help me understand why this guy thinks I’m wrong, I would appreciate it. I’m getting nowhere with him. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/222 "2012-01-12T01:03:20Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Anyone reading this if you happen to have any resources to help me understand why this guy thinks I’m wrong, I would appreciate it. I’m getting nowhere with him. Dude, I’m just asking you to explain in your own words, not someone else’s why you think that slavery would have collapsed so quickly in an indepent CSA and why you think the Northern US would have turned into a haven for escaped slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/223 "2012-01-12T01:07:28Z")
> [@C4nuck](#): > > His argument on Lincoln and the Civil War is that we are the only civilized nation in the history of Earth to fight a Civil War because of slavery. That is fact. If Paul truly believes this then he is wrong and ignorant of some history. The [Haitian Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_revolution) was a civil war fought largely over slavery. The difference is that the rebels won (for a short time, anyway). > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > I personally think he’s racist, homophobic, and sexist, based on the evidence I disagree. I think the popular evidence for this is cherry-picked, like his opposition to MLK Day. I oppose much of his ideology but in the end I think he is a man of good character. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You’re a totally heartless, immoral asshole if you don’t advocate spending\* **other people’s money** \* on aid. If you advocate taking others’ money and sending it overseas you are being generous. I have some libertarian leanings but this is where I part ways. I think at times it is morally consistent to spend other people’s money. It opens a dangerous door but I think it reprehensible to keep it entirely closed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/224 "2012-01-12T01:50:15Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I disagree. I think the popular evidence for this is cherry-picked, like his opposition to MLK Day. I oppose much of his ideology but in the end I think he is a man of good character. In addition to the newsletters he published which made numerous racist claims, he’s complained minorities working for the TSA “don’t look very American.” That’s a pretty classic case of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/225 "2012-01-12T01:56:31Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I disagree. I think the popular evidence for this is cherry-picked, like his opposition to MLK Day. I oppose much of his ideology but in the end I think he is a man of good character. I’m not sure where “good character” comes into it. My grandparents were most assuredly people of good character. They were also racist and sexist (even my grandmothers) to an extent unfathomable to most right thinking people. Just because he’s a decent guy in other contexts doesn’t mean he can’t be a complete douchebag in other contexts. And indeed, all the evidence points to a guy that’s getting a lot of apologies and excuses for his flaws because some people kind of like some of his views and think he, personally, is a decent guy, in a scrappy underdog kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/226 "2012-01-12T03:09:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > In addition to the newsletters he published which made numerous racist claims, he’s complained minorities working for the TSA “don’t look very American.” I dunno if it’s apropos for this thread so I continued the discussion [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14659027&postcount=272). > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I’m not sure where “good character” comes into it. My grandparents were most assuredly people of good character. They were also racist and sexist (even my grandmothers) to an extent unfathomable to most right thinking people. IMO people who are racist and/or sexist are not ones of good character. I haven’t seen direct evidence of that in Paul although if Ibn Warraq’s quote from above is true then that would definitely taint Paul. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/227 "2012-01-12T06:26:16Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > IMO people who are racist and/or sexist are not ones of good character. I haven’t seen direct evidence of that in Paul although if Ibn Warraq’s quote from above is true then that would definitely taint Paul. Since Paul and his aides who were present during the interview haven’t denied it occurred then one would have to be a complete moron or a Paul apologist to believe it’s false. Since you’re obviously neither, once you think it over, I’m sure you’ll recognize just how utterly idiotic it would be to assume that the Paul campaign, which videotapes all of his interviews wouldn’t come forward to deny the quote and present the video disproving it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/228 "2012-01-12T06:39:23Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > If Paul truly believes this then he is wrong and ignorant of some history. The [Haitian Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_revolution) was a civil war fought largely over slavery. The difference is that the rebels won (for a short time, anyway). The other difference is that the slaves **were** the rebels. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/229 "2012-01-12T07:07:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since Paul and his aides who were present during the interview haven’t denied it occurred then one would have to be a complete moron or a Paul apologist to believe it’s false. False dichotomy. Perhaps I don’t swallow everything written on the internet as immediately true even though it fits my political bias. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/230 "2012-01-12T08:54:10Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > False dichotomy. Perhaps I don’t swallow everything written on the internet as immediately true even though it fits my political bias. No, but you also refuse to give credence to interviews of political candidates conducted by reputable news organizations even when the political candidates themselves haven’t challenged the veracity of those interviews. ---
**Author:** ![C4nuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@C4nuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C4nuck)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/231 "2012-01-12T08:59:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then you’d lose your left nut because I’ve never used homophobic slurs. > > Similarly, I’ve never referred to blacks as “niggers” either. > > If you think that it’s ok for Paul to refer to a man as “a queer” if he thinks the man is making a pass at him does that also mean it would be okay for him to call a black man “a nigger” if he thought the man was trying to rob him? > > Are you saying that if Ron Paul had just been carjacked and we had a copy of a 911 call in which he complained about being robbed by “a nigger” then we shouldn’t consider him a racist? So now we’re dabbing in hypotheticals? I’ve dropped the n bomb on several occasions and I know I’m not a racist. Getting half naked and dancing around is a little different than making a pass, too. It’s not like he was sending mixed signals that could be taken as being interested lol. Come on… I don’t know how someone who believes in individual rights and liberties for all human beings can be labeled as a racist, but, whatever. You probably think he wrote the racial stuff in those letters so there’s not much point in beating my head up against a wall. For those interested, you can see the video here. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/F7RnlPQCKBQ/hqdefault.jpg "Ron Paul & Sasha Baron Cohen (Bruno)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7RnlPQCKBQ) I’d venture a good majority of the male population would have handled it much worse than Paul did. My only concern is how his staff didn’t clue in that this was some sort of a joke or setup before the interview went down. And, if anyone thinks the rest of the GOP field hasn’t dropped a racial or homophobic slur at some point they’re kidding themselves. But, just fall in line and vote for one of the other puppets and our country can continue to be flushed down the toilet. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/232 "2012-01-12T13:49:08Z")
Watching the Ron Paulites in action, I’m reminded of the closing scene in one of my favorite movies, _Stalag 17_. The leader of the American prisoners who’ve been watching the final explosive scene play out in the prison compound tells the men “Alright, everyone back in your bunks like you’re sleeping, _just like nothing ever happened._” What Paul supporters are telling us is, “Everyone into the polling booth and vote for Ron, _just like the 19th century and first half of the 20th century never happened._” ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/233 "2012-01-12T14:17:26Z")
> [@C4nuck](#): > > I’d venture a good majority of the male population would have handled it much worse than Paul did. My only concern is how his staff didn’t clue in that this was some sort of a joke or setup before the interview went down. > > And, if anyone thinks the rest of the GOP field hasn’t dropped a racial or homophobic slur at some point they’re kidding themselves. But, just fall in line and vote for one of the other puppets and our country can continue to be flushed down the toilet. Sure, plenty of non-racists have used slurs, but in different contexts. Have you _ever_ said to anyone “That n\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ totally screwed me over at the grocery store today!” or anything similar? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/234 "2012-01-12T15:26:34Z")
> [@C4nuck](#): > > You probably think he wrote the racial stuff in those letters so there’s not much point in beating my head up against a wall. You know what? Even if he didn’t (and I’m willing to buy the notion that the newsletters weren’t written by him), the fact that he let it go on (apparently for some time) under his name means that he was giving tacit approval to it. Even if he didn’t personally agree with the views, he was apparently happy to let it go out, and happy to collect donations from people who agreed with those newsletters. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/235 "2012-01-12T15:29:07Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > You know what? Even if he didn’t (and I’m willing to buy the notion that the newsletters weren’t written by him), the fact that he let it go on (apparently for some time) under his name means that he was giving tacit approval to it. Even if he didn’t personally agree with the views, he was apparently happy to let it go out, and happy to collect donations from people who agreed with those newsletters. This. If I had publications going out in my name saying really atrocious things, I’d put an end to it immediately and find out who was responsible, apologize to the public for the oversight immediately, reinforce my true views, etc. This isn’t what we saw, here. Instead we saw tacit approval and a lot of excuse-tossing, weaving, and bobbing. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/236 "2012-01-12T15:48:43Z")
> [@C4nuck](#): > > You probably think he wrote the racial stuff in those letters so there’s not much point in beating my head up against a wall. I love how Ron Paul supporters try to make it sound like you’re the one being unreasonable for believing that Ron Paul’s newsletter, published in Ron Paul’s name and with Ron Paul’s signature, which happened to make Ron Paul more money than I’ll ever see in my entire life, was written by Ron Paul. If somebody found 10 years of Obama! magazine, published under Obama’s name, filled with support for Marxism and talking about how now is the time to prepare for the upcoming war against the white man, which also made Obama millions of dollars, I have a difficult time accepting that these same people would believe Obama if he said “I didn’t write it, I swear!” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/237 "2012-01-12T16:16:57Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > … I have a difficult time accepting that these same people would believe Obama if he said “I didn’t write it, I swear!” You left off part of “Obama’s” quote: “I didn’t write it, I swear! And I don’t know who wrote it, there’s no way I could be expected to know which of my employees wrote it, I don’t know if the person who wrote it still works for Obama! magazine, and I’ve answered these questions before so THIS INTERVIEW IS OVER!” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/238 "2012-01-12T18:00:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You left off part of “Obama’s” quote: “I didn’t write it, I swear! And I don’t know who wrote it, there’s no way I could be expected to know which of my employees wrote it, I don’t know if the person who wrote it still works for Obama! magazine, and I’ve answered these questions before so THIS INTERVIEW IS OVER!” And if Ron Paul didn’t write or approve of the content of his newsletter, doesn’t that rather undermine the basic theory of libertarianism? We’re supposed to believe that the free market can go unregulated because no company would ever screw their customers, pollute the environment, mistreat their workers, etc., because it would be bad for business, and no CEO with the company’s interest at heart would allow it to happen. How is the CEO of Monsanto supposed to control what pesticides get dumped into a river in Oregon when Paul can’t even control what gets printed in his own newsletter? Even if we take Ron Paul at his word, it demonstrates the kind of irresponsibility that libertarianism makes no allowances for. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/239 "2012-01-12T19:08:07Z")
To build on what Robot just posted, one of the things I’ve found amusing is how completely unconcerned they are with the idea that their leader, if he actually didn’t write those newsletters then he perpetrated a fraud on a grand scale over the course of 15 years. Paul published the letters, used them to fundraise and recieved over a million dollars for them. Also, the newsletters are clearly written as if he wrote them with lines like “In my years as a pediatrician…” and “I voted against this bill because…”. So, the question of whether he wrote the letters or not is also a question of whether he’s a racist or simply a fraud. Nevertheless, not only are his apologists not bothered by this, but they harp on and on about his “great character” and his “integrity”. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888/240 "2012-01-12T20:41:51Z")
I think the letters are less directly a repudiation of Libertarianism (which is admittedly stupid), but about RP. If he can’t even control what is published in his own newsletter under his own name, then why would he make a good president? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ron-paul-pros-cons/608888.md?page=13)