# Ronald Reagan's Birthday **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948 "2010-02-06T20:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/221 "2010-02-27T16:38:49Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Although that will mean you’re really no better than Joe McCarthy yes it’s fine I suppose. Nope. The difference being that old Joe was a liar and a vile man. Me, I’m just quoting the facts about Reagan, facts that aren’t hidden, that anyone could find out for themselves, if they had the least bit of curiosity about their idols. That, and being a supporter of Apartheid is a vile thing in-and-of itself, whereas just being a Communist is not. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/222 "2010-02-27T17:38:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Nope. The difference being that old Joe was a liar and a vile man. Me, I’m just quoting the facts about Reagan, facts that aren’t hidden, that anyone could find out for themselves, if they had the least bit of curiosity about their idols. That, and being a supporter of Apartheid is a vile thing in-and-of itself, whereas just being a Communist is not. He did not support the Apathareid. He did support giving aid to Apathareid South Africa but only because he thought they were a bulwark against the communists. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/223 "2010-02-27T22:19:22Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > He did not support the Apathareid. He did support giving aid to Apathareid South Africa but only because he thought they were a bulwark against the communists. There’s no fucking difference. His “reasons” don’t matter (and I’d be dubious of Mr “State’s Rights” when it comes to racist motive, if I were you) - he supported the fucking Apartheid government. Let me repeat that. He supported a government that was decidedly undemocratic, that murdered and oppressed the majority ethnicities, both local and abroad. Are you telling me he’d have done that if it was Blacks lording it over a White country, in the name of fighting Communism? Please, give me some credit. He wasn’t just casually supportive of the Apartheid government, he was downright friendly to them when the rest of the civilized world (Maggie excepted) was already hostile. And his attempt at spin? He said “the roots of South African strife are more tribal than racial”, which was _exactly_ the spin the Whites would have him take, believe me. That’s not even to get started on his record on American civil rights legislation. And it’s Apartheid, spell it right. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/224 "2010-02-27T23:51:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You can despise someone without wishing them active ill. But that’d take all the fun out of despising him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/225 "2010-03-01T03:31:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s no fucking difference. His “reasons” don’t matter (and I’d be dubious of Mr “State’s Rights” when it comes to racist motive, if I were you) - he supported the fucking Apartheid government. Let me repeat that. He supported a government that was decidedly undemocratic, that murdered and oppressed the majority ethnicities, both local and abroad. Are you telling me he’d have done that if it was Blacks lording it over a White country, in the name of fighting Communism? Please, give me some credit. He wasn’t just casually supportive of the Apartheid government, he was downright friendly to them when the rest of the civilized world (Maggie excepted) was already hostile. And his attempt at spin? He said “the roots of South African strife are more tribal than racial”, which was _exactly_ the spin the Whites would have him take, believe me. > > That’s not even to get started on his record on American civil rights legislation. > > And it’s Apartheid, spell it right. We currently also deal with China who’s treatment of Tibetans and Uighurs leaves much to be desired. Also that quote by Reagan isn’t completely inaccurate-there was inter-tribal violence among black South Africans especially between the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party (the Zulu party). ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/226 "2010-03-01T05:50:20Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In _four_ years, Obama will increase the debt by an estimated 6.35 trillion dollars, and as a percentage of GDP it will increase from 69.2% to 100.8%. That’s using the Administration’s own forcecast, mind you. Experience tells us it will be significantly higher. Whoah there, Sam. Are we putting 2009 on Obama’s shoulders? I’m pretty sure that you’ll agree that it’s 83.4% instead of 69.2%, since Obama didn’t put together the budget prior to being elected. Numbers [here](http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2011/assets/hist07z1.xls) (warning: XLS file). I’m not a fan of running deficits, but I do understand the need for them at this time. The current forecast shows that for the first two years, the deficit **growth** as percentage of GDP will be ever so slightly higher than Bush’s last budget, but will drop pretty quickly from that point on. May or may not be true, but if we’re going to use the forecast, let’s use it universally. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/227 "2010-03-01T06:24:21Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We currently also deal with China who’s treatment of Tibetans and Uighurs leaves much to be desired. This is the Fallacy of Two Wrongs. Try again with a less fallacious argument. > [@](#): > > Also that quote by Reagan isn’t completely inaccurate-there was inter-tribal violence among black South Africans especially between the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party (the Zulu party). \*\*\*Not \*\*\*inter-tribal at all. At the time, the IFP was a quisling stooge for the White government, and there are, and always have been, \*plenty \*of Zulus in the ANC. Jacob Zuma, the current President of SA and former ANC Chief of Intelligence, for instance. Phrasing the ANC-IFP faction fighting in terms of inter-tribal violence was an Apartheid Govt. propaganda tactic. That’s what I meant by St. Ronnie using “exactly the spin” the apartheid govt. wanted. Coincidence? I think not. Also, framing African (it’s always & only African) political disagreements in terms of some nebulous “tribalism” is a favourite racist tactic. As though those brown people were not sophisticated enough to have actual political thought, but blindly follow whatever their bloodline dictates. So primitive. Of course, this _never_ happens with White people. It’s never the Irish Protestant vs the Catholic _tribe_. Never the Spanish vs the Basque _tribe_. Or the Flemish vs the Walloon _tribe_. Hell, even the Chinese conflict is never put in terms of the Han vs Tibetan or Uighur _tribes._ Only Africans are ever put into “tribes” in these sort of excuses for an argument. Because the very word "tribe"is a loaded term, a racist shorthand for saying “primitive, subhuman Black savages”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/228 "2010-03-01T08:39:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Also, framing African (it’s always & only African) political disagreements in terms of some nebulous “tribalism” is a favourite racist tactic. I agree with most of your points here **MrD** , but not this. While “tribalism” is almost always used in reference to Sub-Sahara, it was used pretty regularly in the media in the last decade of the last century, most often in the same sentence as “ethnic cleansing”. [“The New Tribalism” - LA Times, June 8, 1993.](http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/60318287.html?dids=60318287:60318287&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+08%2C+1993&author=CAROL+J.+WILLIAMS&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=THE+NEW+TRIBALISM%3A+Defending+Human+Rights+in+an+Age+of+Ethnic+Conflict+Case+Study%3A+Bosnia-Herzegovina+A+Tragic+Portrait+of+Civilization+Gone+Wrong+%60Ethnic+cleansing%2C'+torture+and+killing+feed+a+hopeless+cycle+of+violence+and+revenge+in+the+war-torn+republic.&pqatl=google) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/229 "2010-03-01T15:06:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > William Buckley was a fairly pragmatic conservative-a light-year away from Sarah Palin. Yes, but he was also a McCarthy stooge before that. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/230 "2010-03-01T16:09:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > But it was even back than more or less probable that Al-Qaeda was behind it. Oooh, ‘more or less probable’ you say. Then by all means start bombing away. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/231 "2010-03-01T16:16:22Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Are we morally perfect? No but we’re better than the terrorists which is my point. You, in your willingness to kill uncounted foreigners (who seem to be some form of sub-human in your mind) are actually just as bad as the terrorists. So I’m assuming it’s okay to bomb your general neighborhood. And under Reagan the USA was a terrorist rogue state. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/232 "2010-03-04T02:28:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is the Fallacy of Two Wrongs. Try again with a less fallacious argument. Does that make my argument any less right? Why is dealing with the Chinese Communists not wrong but Apathareid South Africans are? > [@tagos](#): > > Oooh, ‘more or less probable’ you say. Then by all means start bombing away. :rolleyes: But it was Al-Qaeda who was behind it in the end. > [@tagos](#): > > You, in your willingness to kill uncounted foreigners (who seem to be some form of sub-human in your mind) are actually just as bad as the terrorists. So I’m assuming it’s okay to bomb your general neighborhood. > > And under Reagan the USA was a terrorist rogue state. I meant surgical strikes not indiscrimnate carpet bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/233 "2010-03-04T03:09:36Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Apathareid Why do you keep misspelling this word? > [@](#): > > But it was Al-Qaeda who was behind it in the end. A guess is still a guess, whether or not it’s correct. > [@](#): > > I meant surgical strikes not indiscrimnate carpet bombing. Considering your user name, I thought you’d understand this a little better, but the phrase _surgical strike_ doesn’t really mean what you think it means. Laser guided munitions are accurate to within a 1-meter radius, or possibly even smaller radii - so you can drop them on the building of your choice and be sure you’ll hit it. Unfortunately, a 500 pound warhead will still fuck up all the _other_ buildings in the area too. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/234 "2010-03-04T03:20:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > A guess is still a guess, whether or not it’s correct. Had we taken that guess Bin Laden may be dead to-day and 9-11 attacks avoided. > [@](#): > > Considering your user name, I thought you’d understand this a little better, but the phrase _surgical strike_ doesn’t really mean what you think it means. > > Laser guided munitions are accurate to within a 1-meter radius, or possibly even smaller radii - so you can drop them on the building of your choice and be sure you’ll hit it. > > Unfortunately, a 500 pound warhead will still fuck up all the _other_ buildings in the area too. I think that’s what they call “collateral damage” which is unavoidable in war. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/235 "2010-03-04T03:31:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Had we taken that guess Bin Laden may be dead to-day and 9-11 attacks avoided. “Today” is one word. No need to hyphenate it. If we had guessed wrong, then what? You don’t just go around murdering people (and whatever children might be in the next building) because you 'guess" they might have done something. > [@](#): > > I think that’s what they call “collateral damage” which is unavoidable in war. What fucking war? There wasn’t any war. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/236 "2010-03-04T03:45:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What fucking war? There wasn’t any war. You know, **DTC** , if we’d invaded, or at least started bombing Afghanistan immediately after the Soviet withdrawal in 89, we might have gotten bin Laden. Bush Sr. bears a heavy blame for not seeing the wisdom of that kind of bold, preemptive force projection. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/237 "2010-03-04T03:53:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Today” is one word. No need to hyphenate it. It is an old-fashioned practice and I prefer to use it. > [@](#): > > If we had guessed wrong, then what? You don’t just go around murdering people (and whatever children might be in the next building) because you 'guess" they might have done something. But the guess would have been correct since after _Cole_ the target certainly would have been Al-Qaeda. > [@](#): > > What fucking war? There wasn’t any war. Military action, whatever you want to call it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/238 "2010-03-04T11:58:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > But the guess would have been correct since after _Cole_ the target certainly would have been Al-Qaeda. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I don’t know why I didn’t pick the numbers that came up in last week’s lottery since we know what they are now. How foolish of me. And besides: why are you continuing to blame Clinton for not launching a military action in the last few days of his Presidency based on speculation, and spectacularly failing to blame Bush for not launching the same military action when a) he **knew for a fact** that Al-Qaeda was involved, and b) he would be in office to follow through on any further required actions? > [@](#): > > Military action, whatever you want to call it. You’re awfully cavalier about other people’s lives. Let’s be honest and call it “bombing foreign people I don’t know and who aren’t like me”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/239 "2010-03-04T14:11:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > I agree with most of your points here **MrD** , but not this. While “tribalism” is almost always used in reference to Sub-Sahara, it was used pretty regularly in the media in the last decade of the last century, most often in the same sentence as “ethnic cleansing”. > [“The New Tribalism” - LA Times, June 8, 1993.](http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/60318287.html?dids=60318287:60318287&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+08%2C+1993&author=CAROL+J.+WILLIAMS&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=THE+NEW+TRIBALISM%3A+Defending+Human+Rights+in+an+Age+of+Ethnic+Conflict+Case+Study%3A+Bosnia-Herzegovina+A+Tragic+Portrait+of+Civilization+Gone+Wrong+%60Ethnic+cleansing%2C'+torture+and+killing+feed+a+hopeless+cycle+of+violence+and+revenge+in+the+war-torn+republic.&pqatl=google) OK, call it hyperbole then - it’s only \*mostly \*referenced to Africans. I think the implications of primitivism stand. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/240 "2010-03-04T14:26:31Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Does that make my argument any less right? Yes, it does - that’s why it’s the \*\*Fallacy \*\*of Two Wrongs. > [@](#): > > Why is dealing with the Chinese Communists not wrong but Apathareid South Africans are? Firstly - you’re just stating that dealing with the Chinese is not wrong as though it were a fact, but that doesn’t make you right. It _is_ wrong to deal with them(if you are opposed to their government or human rights record or whatever). That’s what makes it the Fallacy of \*\*Two \*\*Wrongs.It was wrong to deal with the Apartheid Govt. _and_ it’s wrong to deal with the Chinese. SO ([here comes the logic lesson](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/twowrong.html)) it’s fallacious because pointing to one wrong being currently done doesn’t cancel or excuse another. You have to argue for the rightness or wrongness of the act on its own merits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948.md?page=13)