# Ronald Reagan's Birthday **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948 "2010-02-06T20:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/241 "2010-03-04T14:28:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We’re not saints but we’re better than the communists and the Islamists. What is an “Islamist”? Do you have any clue how bigoted this appears? As for communists, the 1950s called. They want their paranoia back. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/242 "2010-03-04T14:32:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I think that’s what they call “collateral damage” which is unavoidable in war. Collateral damage is made-up jargon bullshit to obscure the reality that modern warfare is an indiscriminate killer. “Murder of noncombatants” would be a more accurate term. And yes, it isn’t completely unavoidable, but it can be minimised to a greater extent than it currently is. But then, of course, someone is going to have to get their precious ass out from behind a remote joystick and into harm’s way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/243 "2010-03-04T14:45:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It is an old-fashioned practice and I prefer to use it. Dost thou employ other archaic phrasing withal? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/244 "2010-03-04T14:48:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Collateral damage is made-up jargon bullshit to obscure the reality that modern warfare is an indiscriminate killer. Then I guess any organization which [kills civilians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_bombing) and [accepts support](http://www.lonympics.co.uk/ANC.htm) from repressive governments ought to be condemned. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/245 "2010-03-04T15:19:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then I guess any organization which [kills civilians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_bombing) and [accepts support](http://www.lonympics.co.uk/ANC.htm) from repressive governments ought to be condemned. Firstly, a complete _non sequitur_ - we’re discussing collateral damage, not deliberate targeting of civilians, which attacking a crowded square at rush hour definitely was, all the TRC platitudes not withstanding. Secondly, _tu quoque_ is not an argument, it’s empty rhetoric. Thirdly, do you think I’m an ANC supporter or apologist for some reason?😕I don’t (and didn’t) approve of their methods. Fourthly, damn, man, but that second site is ugly and unreadable. Maybe you could highlight which particular repressive governments I should be berating the ANC for accepting help from? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/246 "2010-03-04T15:23:40Z")
It does make me laugh, though, that you think pointing out something the ANC has done is some kind of killer gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/247 "2010-03-04T16:20:28Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It is an old-fashioned practice and I prefer to use it. What are you, Montomery Burns? Do you also enjoy iced-cream and put tar-tar sauce on your fish sticks > [@](#): > > But the guess would have been correct since after _Cole_ the target certainly would have been Al-Qaeda. Irrelevant. You don’t get to apply future knowledge into the past. You don’t guess when it comes to human life. Look at Iraq. Bush guessed wrong. Untold thousands of innocents killed for nothing. > [@](#): > > Military action, whatever you want to call it. Calling it a “military action” is simply facile. Timothy McVeigh did the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/248 "2010-03-05T07:44:51Z")
IIRC, didn’t Bill Clinton actually try to take out Bin Laden – and that’s the whole episode when he was accused of “wagging the dog?” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/249 "2010-03-05T09:40:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, didn’t Bill Clinton actually try to take out Bin Laden – and that’s the whole episode when he was accused of “wagging the dog?” Yes, and **Curtis** has been told that. He has asserted that Clinton should have gone after Al-Qaeda for the _Cole_ attack anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/250 "2010-03-06T04:10:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I don’t know why I didn’t pick the numbers that came up in last week’s lottery since we know what they are now. How foolish of me. > > And besides: why are you continuing to blame Clinton for not launching a military action in the last few days of his Presidency based on speculation, and spectacularly failing to blame Bush for not launching the same military action when a) he **knew for a fact** that Al-Qaeda was involved, and b) he would be in office to follow through on any further required actions? And I’m not that a big fan of George W. Bush-I don’t consider him a great President, he could have done better in a whole lot of areas. > [@](#): > > You’re awfully cavalier about other people’s lives. Let’s be honest and call it “bombing foreign people I don’t know and who aren’t like me”. Would you call all bombing campaigns that? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, it does - that’s why it’s the \*\*Fallacy \*\*of Two Wrongs.Firstly - you’re just stating that dealing with the Chinese is not wrong as though it were a fact, but that doesn’t make you right. It _is_ wrong to deal with them(if you are opposed to their government or human rights record or whatever). That’s what makes it the Fallacy of \*\*Two \*\*Wrongs.It was wrong to deal with the Apartheid Govt. _and_ it’s wrong to deal with the Chinese. SO ([here comes the logic lesson](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/twowrong.html)) it’s fallacious because pointing to one wrong being currently done doesn’t cancel or excuse another. You have to argue for the rightness or wrongness of the act on its own merits. Ah, but we have to deal with the Chinese to keep the economy afloat-we dealt with the South Africans because they were anti-Communist after all another African freedom fighter-Robert Mugabe has turned out be worse than the former white overlords. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > What is an “Islamist”? Do you have any clue how bigoted this appears? As for communists, the 1950s called. They want their paranoia back. Islamic fundamentalism, especially Wahabbism and Radical Shiaism from Iran. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/251 "2010-03-06T05:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re awfully cavalier about other people’s lives. Let’s be honest and call it “bombing foreign people I don’t know and who aren’t like me”. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Would you call all bombing campaigns that? Please, the original Curtis was more cavalier. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Killing Japanese didn’t bother me very much at that time… I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. - Curtis E. LeMay, commander of the B-29s that firebombed Japan. It depends on the situation if bombings are justified or not, but we are going further away from the point, this USS Cole part of the debate came from you saying that Clinton should had attacked al-Qaeda by guessing. Besides being a very foolish tactic, there were still doubts about where to attack, and even during during the Dim son Bush administration: > **[National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States](https://9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing9/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-04-08.htm)** > [@](#): > > MR. THOMPSON: Well, I’m going to sound like my brother Kerrey, which terrifies me somewhat. (Laughter.) But blowing up our destroyers is an act of war against us, is it not? I mean, how long would that have to go on before we would respond with an act of war? > > MS. RICE: We’d had several acts of war committed against us. And I think we believed that responding kind of tit-for-tat, probably with inadequate military options, because for all the plans that might have been looked at by the Pentagon or on the shelf, they were not connected to a political policy that was going to change the circumstances of al Qaeda and the Taliban, and therefore, the relationship to Pakistan. > > Look, it can be debated as to whether nor not one should have responded to the Cole.\*\* I think that we really believed that an inadequate response was simply going to embolden them. And I think you’ve heard that from Secretary Rumsfeld as well. And I believe we felt very strongly that way.\*\* AFAIK more evidence came up that the countries most likely involved in the Cole attack were Sudan and Yemen (still involved al-Qaeda guys but they had the support or came from those countries). But by that time we were already busy making an “adequate” response in Iraq… Where al-Qaeda did not get any help, until we got rid of an old enemy of them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/252 "2010-03-06T05:25:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please, the original Curtis was more cavalier. 🙂 > > - Curtis E. LeMay, commander of the B-29s that firebombed Japan. > > It depends on the situation if bombings are justified or not, but we are going further away from the point, this USS Cole part of the debate came from you saying that Clinton should had attacked al-Qaeda by guessing. Besides being a very foolish tactic, there were still doubts about where to attack, and even during during the Dim son Bush administration: > > [National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States](http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing9/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-04-08.htm) And that was a grave mistake by the Bush administration. I’m not denying their faults. > [@](#): > > AFAIK more evidence came up that the countries most likely involved in the Cole attack were Sudan and Yemen (still involved al-Qaeda guys but they had the support or came from those countries). But by that time we were already busy doing an “adequate” response in Iraq. Who knows? What if we hadn’t invaded Iraq but than developed WMDs? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/253 "2010-03-06T05:32:49Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > And that was a grave mistake by the Bush administration. I’m not denying their faults. > > Who knows? What if we hadn’t invaded Iraq but than developed WMDs? Don’t avoid the subject, you were wrong in telling us that we should had gone for a guess or a gut feeling in the response to the USS Cole attack. As for Iraq, the reality was and still remains that they had no or really inadequate WMDs. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/254 "2010-03-06T12:50:45Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Ah, but we have to deal with the Chinese to keep the economy afloat Firstly, you don’t “have to” deal with anybody you don’t want to. Secondly, that \*still \*doesn’t make it _right._ > [@](#): > > -we dealt with the South Africans because they were anti-Communist They were anti-Communist because that was what got them support. Likewise, the ANC sided with the Communists because they were the only people willing to arm and fund resistance movements in Africa. And there’s nothing \*inherently \*right about anti-Communism vs Communism. Not when the anti-Communists are racist murderers. > [@](#): > > after all another African freedom fighter-Robert Mugabe has turned out be worse than the former white overlords. I don’t know about _worse_. He’s a pretty shitty ruler and a mad bastard, for sure, but…\*he \*wasn’t the one using poison and biological warfare on his enemies, like the White Rhodesians did. So no, he _hasn’t_ turned out worse so far. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/255 "2010-03-06T16:44:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Firstly, you don’t “have to” deal with anybody you don’t want to. > Secondly, that \*still \*doesn’t make it _right._ But it is a necessary evil. > [@](#): > > They were anti-Communist because that was what got them support. Likewise, the ANC sided with the Communists because they were the only people willing to arm and fund resistance movements in Africa. > > And there’s nothing \*inherently \*right about anti-Communism vs Communism. Not when the anti-Communists are racist murderers.I don’t know about _worse_. He’s a pretty shitty ruler and a mad bastard, for sure, \*\*but…\*he \*wasn’t the one using poison and biological warfare on his enemies, like the White Rhodesians did. \*\*So no, he _hasn’t_ turned out worse so far. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/256 "2010-03-06T17:56:59Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > But it is a necessary evil. _No_ evil is \*ever \*necessary. But this, least of all. Rather say “we are too lazy or entitled or spoiled to do without the cheap stuff and other toys we’re used to, just to make a moral point”. That would be more accurate than bullshit like “Necessary evil”. It’s from exactly the same school of semantic mangling as “collateral damage” and “War on Terror”. A little bit of wordplay to distract you from the man behind the curtain. And besides that,\* even if\* it were necessary, it would \*still \*be absolutely no argument against supporting the Apartheid government. It’d _still_ be the Fallacy of Two Wrongs. So far, your only argument that actually addresses the Reagan-era support of Pretoria is that they were some sort of bulwark against Communism. I’ve shown that’s bullshit, and it really is - but even so, if the \*majority \*of the actual people in South Africa \*wanted \*Communism, who was Reagan to say no? > [@](#): > > Cite? Here, let me Google that for you… [Cite](http://www.anthraxvaccine.org/zimbabwe.html) [Cite](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/sa/) [Cite](http://www.acronym.org.uk/dd/dd52/52trial.htm) [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia#End_of_the_Bush_War) Note who provided the Rhodesians with their weaponised anthrax and other BW agents - the South African military. You know, those same upstanding defenders of right and freedom Reagan was rooting for.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/257 "2010-03-07T02:45:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _No_ evil is \*ever \*necessary. But this, least of all. > Rather say “we are too lazy or entitled or spoiled to do without the cheap stuff and other toys we’re used to, just to make a moral point”. That would be more accurate than bullshit like “Necessary evil”. It’s from exactly the same school of semantic mangling as “collateral damage” and “War on Terror”. A little bit of wordplay to distract you from the man behind the curtain. > > And besides that,\* even if\* it were necessary, it would \*still \*be absolutely no argument against supporting the Apartheid government. It’d _still_ be the Fallacy of Two Wrongs. To use the example of China-it’s economic growth is the best hope for China to become a democracy. It’s hundreds of millions of people would suffer without American investment-now China is booming. > [@](#): > > So far, your only argument that actually addresses the Reagan-era support of Pretoria is that they were some sort of bulwark against Communism. I’ve shown that’s bullshit, and it really is - but even so, if the \*majority \*of the actual people in South Africa \*wanted \*Communism, who was Reagan to say no? I personally disagreed with Reagan on this issue but I also think most of the time you can understand why someone would take a certain position. > [@](#): > > Here, let me Google that for you… > [Cite](http://www.anthraxvaccine.org/zimbabwe.html) > [Cite](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plague/sa/) > [Cite](http://www.acronym.org.uk/dd/dd52/52trial.htm) > [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia#End_of_the_Bush_War) > > Note who provided the Rhodesians with their weaponised anthrax and other BW agents - the South African military. You know, those same upstanding defenders of right and freedom Reagan was rooting for.:rolleyes: Hardly compares actually with what the Zimbabweans are going through right now-not as showy but far more deadly. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/258 "2010-03-07T07:45:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > To use the example of China-it’s economic growth is the best hope for China to become a democracy. It’s hundreds of millions of people would suffer without American investment-now China is booming. I see - you’re doing it for the Chinese, you paragons of virtue,you.:rolleyes: Look, stick with, and finish, \*one \*argument at a time, please. You were arguing that it was a necessary evil for America. Finish that first (or just admit it’s a non-starter) and then we can go on to whether Chinese really would suffer without American investment, whether that will lead to democracy (it hasn’t yet) etc., etc. > [@](#): > > I personally disagreed with Reagan on this issue but I also think most of the time you can understand why someone would take a certain position. Understand =/= condone. What you’ve been doing is making up excuses for Reagan’s defence of Pretoria. That goes way beyond mere understanding (I can understand why Reagan did as he did, too - he was a racist with a Communist bugbear) into whitewashing. > [@](#): > > Hardly compares actually with what the Zimbabweans are going through right now-not as showy but far more deadly. A lot of people in Zim are in danger because of drought and mismanagement. Mugabe is not \*actually \*responsible for the drought in Zimbabwe, the way White Rhodesians \*were \*responsible for anthrax in the Bush War. And as for mismanagement - yes, I’m sure that puts him up there with Mao in some minds, but it is still not the same as deliberately killing people. Morality (to me, anyway) is not just a results-based paradigm. Method and motivation counts a lot, too. Booting White people off their land and mismanagement of government merely to enrich yourselves is not, _morally_, in the same league as poisoning wells and starting plagues in defence of a racist government system. When Mugabe starts regularly rounding up opponents for execution, rather than beatings and prison, you can declare equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/259 "2010-03-08T02:09:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I see - you’re doing it for the Chinese, you paragons of virtue,you.:rolleyes: > Look, stick with, and finish, \*one \*argument at a time, please. You were arguing that it was a necessary evil for America. Finish that first (or just admit it’s a non-starter) and then we can go on to whether Chinese really would suffer without American investment, whether that will lead to democracy (it hasn’t yet) etc., etc. If China hadn’t been opened up to the United States and the rest of the West it’s people would have stuck in '60s and '70s agarian socialism rather than the industrializing and commercial China we see today. > [@](#): > > Understand =/= condone. What you’ve been doing is making up excuses for Reagan’s defence of Pretoria. That goes way beyond mere understanding (I can understand why Reagan did as he did, too - he was a racist with a Communist bugbear) into whitewashing. The South African Apathareid government was not a threat to anyone outside and simply could not survive long-term while the Communists certainly were a threat. > [@](#): > > A lot of people in Zim are in danger because of drought and mismanagement. Mugabe is not \*actually \*responsible for the drought in Zimbabwe, the way White Rhodesians \*were \*responsible for anthrax in the Bush War. And as for mismanagement - yes, I’m sure that puts him up there with Mao in some minds, but it is still not the same as deliberately killing people. Morality (to me, anyway) is not just a results-based paradigm. Method and motivation counts a lot, too. > Booting White people off their land and mismanagement of government merely to enrich yourselves is not, _morally_, in the same league as poisoning wells and starting plagues in defence of a racist government system. When Mugabe starts regularly rounding up opponents for execution, rather than beatings and prison, you can declare equivalence. The MDC’s supporters, white farmers, and their black workers have constantly been attacked and killed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948/260 "2010-03-08T11:06:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If China hadn’t been opened up to the United States and the rest of the West it’s people would have stuck in '60s and '70s agarian socialism rather than the industrializing and commercial China we see today. Prove it. I contend China would likely have industrialized anyway - all it took was Mao and crew to peg off, really. But once again, this is still a Fallacious Argument. > [@](#): > > The South African Apathareid government was not a threat to anyone outside Tell that to Namibia, Angola, Zimbabwe, Mozambique - hell, since the mad fuckers developed nukes and probably could have developed missiles too, tell that to the entire world. Not that that has anything to do with whether what they did was morally right, at all. Stop evading issues. > [@](#): > > The MDC’s supporters, white farmers, and their black workers have constantly been attacked and killed. In the same numbers as in the Bush War? Cite? And ffs, learn how to spell **Apartheid** , already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-birthday/527948.md?page=14)