# Ronald Reagan's Legacy: Your Thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379 "2011-01-20T21:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/221 "2011-02-04T03:21:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > “Watergate! Watergate!” Has any man been so condemned for just one of his actions ignoring all his other beneficial actions? “Monica! Monica!”? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/222 "2011-02-04T03:34:36Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’ll note that Nixon resigned because _Republicans_ were signing onto his impeachment and conviction. Why do you suppose that was? There, you see? He brought unity to the Democrats and Republicans! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/223 "2011-02-04T03:42:57Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > “Watergate! Watergate!” Has any man been so condemned for just one of his actions ignoring all his other beneficial actions? Well, to be fair, he’s also roundly condemned for being a douche. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/224 "2011-02-04T03:49:03Z")
Didn’t Nixon favour abortion for women in mixed-race relationships? I believe he used the word “necessary”, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/225 "2011-02-04T03:55:50Z")
Well, not \*all \*mixed-race relationships: [QUOTE=Tricky Dick] “There are times when an abortion is necessary. I know that. When you have a black and a white, or a rape.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/226 "2011-02-04T04:04:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not \*all \*mixed-race relationships: But other than the racism, and the criminal stuff. He was a great Republican president! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/227 "2011-02-04T04:12:15Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Nonsense. Neither Texas nor Illinois can be shown to have been won by Nixon in 1960. In fact, the Illinois Board of elections, consisting of four Republicans and one Democrat, unanimously rejected the GOPs appeal. The GOP aggressively challenged results in a number of other states as well, and won only in Hawaii. > > You’re doing nothing here but demonstrating your ignorance. Nixon discouraged several efforts to investigate fraud for fear of causing a national crisis of a disputed election. And most of my arguments have come from well-respected history books such as Paul Johnson’s _A History of the American People_. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not \*all \*mixed-race relationships: He was born in 1913 when lynching was a regular occurrence and Nixon was not advocating this as government policy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/228 "2011-02-04T04:37:57Z")
No excuse. Lots of people born around then weren’t racists sixty years later. Also, if being a self-made man can be used as evidence in support of his presidential greatness even though it’s unrelated to policy, then his racism can be used as evidence denying his presidential greatness even though it is also unrelated to policy. No doubt about it, you’re trying to portray a racist and a criminal as one of the great presidents. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/229 "2011-02-04T04:55:59Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The enduring legacy of Ronald Reagan was to leave most Republicans with the delusion that they can have the government they want without paying for it. > > During the campaign of 1980 Reagan said he could cut taxes, raise defense spending, and balance the budget by 1983 “if not sooner” without cutting middle class entitlements. It was not true, but most Republicans thought it was, and still do. That delusion has lead to the increase to the national debt which makes it difficult for President Obama to deal with the Great Recession. Please. I think we’ve had a balanced (IIRC…) budget 2 years since 1969. **2.** The congress and President[s] have been liquidating this country for 40+ years. They’ve been spending [borrowed] money like sailors on leave, Republicans and Democrats alike. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/230 "2011-02-04T04:59:53Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > They’ve been spending [borrowed] money like sailors on leave, Republicans and Democrats alike. Mostly the Republicans though. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/231 "2011-02-04T05:05:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The argument that Reagan was showing signs of alzhheimers while he was in office was made by many of his confidants after his admin ended. They wrote books stating he had to be protected from questions off message. His press conferences were extremely specific. They would have a theme and reporters were expected to stay on theme. His handlers feared anything that would take him off subject. He could be embarrassing. They had no idea what he would say. But, they could give him the lines to get through a press conference if it stayed on subject. > Many reporters hinted that he was having problems. They could not prove it, but they were aware something was wrong. > Now his son and Stahl have stated it was known. Whats so hard to believe? Who were these many confidants, and what were these books? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/232 "2011-02-04T05:08:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Mostly the Republicans though. FTR, I have no dog in the fight. But the notion that the Republicans are profligate spenders oberlooks the fact the Democrats are just as guilty. Republicans: Borrow, Borrow, spend & spend. Democrats: Borrow, Tax, spend & spend. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/233 "2011-02-04T05:19:34Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Iran-Contra (George HW Bush pardoned Reagan and himself) Considering the fact that [you are absolutely wrong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_George_H._W._Bush) in your first claim, is there any reason to even read - much less seriously think about - the rest of your claims? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/234 "2011-02-04T05:25:39Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > FTR, I have no dog in the fight. > > But the notion that the Republicans are profligate spenders oberlooks the fact the Democrats are just as guilty. > > Republicans: Borrow, Borrow, spend & spend. > Democrats: Borrow, Tax, spend & spend. I had no idea things had reached such an intolerable state. Do you mean to say that Democrats have the temerity to tax people to pay for what the government does? Throw the scoundrels out! L.H. Puttgrass signing off and heading for the tub! ---
**Author:** ![Zelski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c67d28/32.png) [@Zelski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zelski)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/235 "2011-02-04T07:05:50Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I’m not claiming that Star Wars caused the demise of the Soviet Union - but by the mid-80s the Soviet Union was spending between 15-17% of their GNP on defense, with defense expenditures rising 4-7% annually. That wasn’t sustainable, as events post-1989 demonstrated. I try to stay out of debates as you folks seem to have more energy for it (and you are likely better at debate) but this bon mot forced my hand. I looked this up in the late 1990s and found an article (I believe it was in the Atlantic and called Reagan and the Russians) which claimed that Russian military spending never really changed during Reagan’s build-up, that it had been about 20% of their GDP from the 1960s onward. This would imply that Reagan’s military build-up policies didn’t have much impact on the eventual collapse of the USSR. Unfortunately, that article has been gone for years on the internet. So, you say, give a cite? [Here](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mo-budget.htm) is a citation from global [security.org](http://security.org) It claims some numbers eerily similar to Mr. Moto’s: [[QUOTE=GlobalSecurity.org](http://QUOTE=GlobalSecurity.org)] By the mid-1980s, the Soviet Union devoted between 15 and 17 percent of its annual gross national product to military spending, according to United States government sources. Until the early 1980s, Soviet defense expenditures rose between 4 and 7 percent per year. Subsequently, they slowed as the yearly growth in Soviet GNP slipped to about 3 percent. [/quote] Pretty close, eh? But there’s one big difference: in the global security quote, the 4-7% growth rate had already dropped by the mid-eighties. The 4-7% growth was earlier. So, during Reagan’s build-up, the USSR had already begun to move towards greater (but not great enough to save them) fiscal responsibility. Also keep in mind that in an inflationary world (and the 1980s were quite inflationary) 4-7% growth might be less than a COLA for the Russian military budget. I don’t have the Russian inflation rates in front of me to compare, though. [Here](http://www.faqs.org/cia/docs/50/0000380724/THE-ECONOMIC-IMPACT-OF-SOVIET-MILITARY-SPENDING-%28ER-IR-75-3%29.html) is a citation from a CIA document [QUOTE=CIA in 1975] the dollar value of Soviet GNP has increased from slightly less than one-half to slightly more than one-half of US GNP. and Soviet military expenditures valued in US prices have climbed from somewhat less than US defense outlays to somewhat more than US outlays. Some observers concluded from these estimates that the economic impact of defense programs must be roughly twice as large in the USSR as in the United States. fact is. however, that the Politburo spends rubles, not dollars,Defense goods and services are relatively cheap in the USSR, [/quote] from which I get a couple interesting items. First, the Russians get cheap prices for military because of low wages and maybe some other endemic features like cheap titanium. Second, it is at least possible that the Russians were already outspending the US, militarily, when compared to their GNP and this paper is from 1975. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/236 "2011-02-04T11:01:02Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Considering the fact that [you are absolutely wrong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_George_H._W._Bush) in your first claim, is there any reason to even read - much less seriously think about - the rest of your claims? Don’t worry; you are not expected to have to read or think about anything. But I’d certainly like a cite about Bush pardoning Reagan and himself. They escaped pretty much scot free from Iran-Contra, thanks in part to vast numbers of documents being destroyed or withheld, but others who did get convicted were [subsequently pardoned](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair#Convictions.2C_pardons_and_reinstatements) and never went to prison. And Ollie North got a show on FoxNews. By the way, Reagan’s apology for the arms-for-hostages swap featured this beauty: > [@Reagan](#): > > A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that’s true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not. And people wonder why we thought he was senile during his time in office… ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/237 "2011-02-04T11:46:47Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > most of my arguments have come from well-respected history books such as Paul Johnson’s _A History of the American People_. Okay, there’s your problem: Paul Johnson is well-respected among staunch conservative apologists, but among anyone to the left of Edwin Meese, he’s a joke. When he gets into areas I know a lot about, he can’t even get his facts straight, so I’m not going to rely on him for anything out of my sphere of expertise. You ought to try reading historians WITHOUT a pronounced bias in the direction you favor–you could learn something, and I promise it won’t hurt a bit. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/238 "2011-02-04T12:49:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Nixon discouraged several efforts to investigate fraud for fear of causing a national crisis of a disputed election. And most of my arguments have come from well-respected history books such as Paul Johnson’s _A History of the American People_ This is a [myth.](http://www.salon.com/news/politics/feature/2000/11/10/nixon) > [@](#): > > It is true that Nixon did quickly concede the election to Kennedy. And while he was careful not to put a public imprimatur on the concerted Republican effort to challenge the election results, he privately not only authorized it, but actively encouraged it… > > And not only did Republican senators like Thruston Morton ask for recounts in 11 states just three days after the election, but Nixon aides Bob Finch and Len Hall personally did field checks of votes in almost a dozen states… > > Unhappy with those results, Republicans went to federal court, where their case was dismissed. They then appealed to the State Board of Elections, which also rejected their claims. It was not until Dec. 19 – over a month after the election – that the national Republican Party backed off its Illinois claims. Nixon was not personally crying foul, but his henchmen were quite busy trying to find ways to reverse the election. He kept himself above the fray, appearing the gracious loser all the while trying to contest the election. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/239 "2011-02-04T13:21:38Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Paul Volker (first appointed by Carter) is largely credited with ending inflation. Reagan fired him. Not real strong on the history part, are you? Volcker left the Fed in 1987, having served there for eight years, six of them under Reagan. Reagan re-appointed him in 1983. > [@Zelski](#): > > the 1980s were quite inflationary No they weren’t - the US inflation rate was 13.5% in 1980 and was cut by almost two thirds (4.1% in 1988). > [@Crane](#): > > Iran-Contra (George HW Bush pardoned Reagan and himself) I don’t know why I bother. Attitudes based on these kinds of whoppers can’t be refuted. I think I will leave you all to your delusions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/240 "2011-02-04T13:35:42Z")
Godix & Shodan, Thanks for the comments. News broadcasts at the time presented it as a general pardon of all involved. I now see that he only pardoned some of the key participants. However, his act undermined Walsh ending the investigation. The effect was the same. Crane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379.md?page=13)