# Ronald Reagan's Legacy: Your Thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379 "2011-01-20T21:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/21 "2011-01-20T23:57:01Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Nor could I find confirmation that John Ashcroft said that about homosexuals. Quoting Ashcroft doesn’t even make much sense wrt Reagan. Ashcroft was just a State Attorney General in 1980, and wasn’t a national politician (Senator) until 1995. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/22 "2011-01-21T00:06:00Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > A doddering old fool with a silver tongue and a super strong team behind him. I thought he ws a great leader who happened to lead in a direction that I thought was wrong. He would have been just as happy to lead in any other direction, I believe, as long as he got to ride on the float and wave. > > He was responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union the same way Carter was responsible for the fall of Iran. They both happened to be POTUS when it happened. During the Reagan years Reagan’s advisers ran the country. We did not have a president. We had a presidential committee. Reagan was not even in charge of the committee. He was an amiable front man who needed to be told what to say and where to put his feet. In his book The Triumph of Politics: How the Reagan Revolution Failed David Stockman, who was Reagan’s Director of the Office of Management and Budget from 1981 to 1985 wrote on page 76 “It was evident that [Edmund] Meese was the acting President.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/23 "2011-01-21T00:09:25Z")
[QUOTE=New Deal Democrat] Also, the United States spends 46.5% of what the rest of the world spends on the military. [/QUOTE] So what? Our GDP is huge compared to any other single country. We also emphasize having a capable military, something the EU obviously doesn’t (and, frankly, leaves mainly to us to carry the water). China’s GDP is not even half of ours, and they have further to go to get their military up to snuff (and, IIRC, spend a higher percentage of their GDP on the military than we do, even if that is a lot less in absolute terms because their GDP is so much less than ours). > [@](#): > > I do not think that is sustainable. Probably not, in the long term. Sort of like the social program spending of many European countries, IMHO. In the end they will have to cut back (already are in some cases) and so will we. What we really need is to define a realistic mission for our military so we can optimize our spending on what we need. IMHO of course. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/24 "2011-01-21T00:12:41Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The gasoline shortages, the subsequent inflation, and the Hostage Crises were caused by the Iranian Revolution. Carter was not responsible for that. Maybe not, but he was responsible for being a candyass while our guys where held captive. Had he taken a harder line and been willing to go to war, either our guys would have been home sooner or maybe Iran would not be the rogue nation it is today. That was a great opportunity to send an unmistakable message–one does not fuck with Americans. Instead, the message sent was more like–America is a paper tiger. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/25 "2011-01-21T00:20:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I just reread that speech - there was nothing about optics or lasers in it. And I seem to recall that research at the time was spread among a number of different research areas, and the beam weapons went by the wayside fairly quickly. > > Am I wrong here, or are you? It didn’t need optics or lasers he said this: > [@](#): > > After careful consultation with my advisers, including the Joint Chiefs of Staff, I believe there is a way. Let me share with you a vision of the future which offers hope. It is that we embark on a program to counter the awesome Soviet missile threat with measures that are defensive. Let us turn to the very strengths in technology that spawned our great industrial base and that have given us the quality of life we enjoy today. > > What if free people could live secure in the knowledge that their security did not rest upon the threat of instant U.S. retaliation to deter a Soviet attack, that we could intercept and destroy strategic ballistic missiles before they reached our own soil or that of our allies? > … > > America does possess – now – the technologies to attain very significant improvements in the effectiveness of our conventional, non-nuclear forces. Proceeding boldly with these new technologies, we can significantly reduce any incentive that the Soviet Union may have to threaten attack against the United States or its allies. There were non-optical technologies (like Daniel O. Graham’s “High Frontier” proposals, which he’d already published in popular book form by this time) that qualified as “new technologies”, but , since there was nothing significantly “new” about it, his speech hints that this was some non-ballistic technology – particle beams, lasers (which were much in the news – Reagan’s speech wasn’t the “starting gun” for anti-ABM laser weapons) and other, more exotic technologies (like plasma systems) So you are wrong =-- in thinking that Reagon explicitly mentioned laser weapons. We now know that, in fact, Edward Teller’s “Excalibur” program of nuclear-pumped laser weapons was one of the catalysts for this speech. At the time, we didn’t know exactly what he had in mind (and I suspect he didn’t either), but lasers were clearly in the running. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/26 "2011-01-21T00:22:35Z")
Reagan doesn’t get enough credit for [bringing the religious right into the center of the Republican tent.](http://are.as.wvu.edu/lebeau1.htm) Without Reagan, Huckabee and Palin would be political nobodies, not frontrunners in the 2012 GOP presidential race. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/27 "2011-01-21T00:23:04Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > his biographer Edmund Wilson Edmund Morris? I’d really like to read a Reagan bio written by Edmund Wilson, though. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/28 "2011-01-21T00:30:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Maybe not, but he was responsible for being a candyass while our guys where held captive. Had he taken a harder line and been willing to go to war, either our guys would have been home sooner or maybe Iran would not be the rogue nation it is today. That was a great opportunity to send an unmistakable message–one does not fuck with Americans. Instead, the message sent was more like–America is a paper tiger. Darn, I’m having Iraq Invasion flashbacks here. Worked like a charm that thing. By the way, how does the Iran-Contra affair stand in that curious world view? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/29 "2011-01-21T00:40:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Greatest POTUS of my lifetime, which dates back to LBJ. I will admit that there is not much in the way of competition for that title. > > Does get credit for winning the Cold War. And for restoring hope…the Carter years were a very dark time for the country. > > But I have no doubt the usual suspects will be here shortly to shit all over the legacy of a fine man. +1 Particularly the part about restoring hope after Carter. The mood of the country changed dramatically over night. It was really pretty amazing. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/30 "2011-01-21T00:41:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe not, but he was responsible for being a candyass while our guys where held captive. Had he taken a harder line and been willing to go to war He wasn’t a “candyass”. He authorized Operation Eagle Claw to get them ouit It’s certainly not his fault that the helicopters ran into a sandstorm. > **[Operation Eagle Claw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw)** > > Central Intelligence Agency > Logistical support: > Operation Eagle Claw (Persian: عملیات پنجه عقاب) was a failed United States Department of Defense attempt to rescue 53 embassy staff held captive by Revolutionary Iran on 24 April 1980. It was ordered by U.S. president Jimmy Carter after the staff were seized at the Embassy of the United States, Tehran. The operation, one of Delta Force's first, encountered many obstacles and failures and was subsequently aborted. Eight helicopters were sent to... ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/31 "2011-01-21T00:44:08Z")
The enduring legacy of Ronald Reagan was to leave most Republicans with the delusion that they can have the government they want without paying for it. During the campaign of 1980 Reagan said he could cut taxes, raise defense spending, and balance the budget by 1983 “if not sooner” without cutting middle class entitlements. It was not true, but most Republicans thought it was, and still do. That delusion has lead to the increase to the national debt which makes it difficult for President Obama to deal with the Great Recession. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/32 "2011-01-21T00:44:44Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] He wasn’t a “candyass”. He authorized Operation Eagle Claw to get them ouit It’s certainly not his fault that the helicopters ran into a sandstorm. [/QUOTE] It was his fault for sending them in when they weren’t up to snuff training or equipment wise, and the general lower preparedness of our military at that time was certainly something he had a non-zero amount of complicity with. Regardless, he got the rap. He was in charge. Had it been a huge success he certainly would have gotten the credit, no? And he would have deserved the credit about as much as he deserved the blame. -XT ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/33 "2011-01-21T00:46:50Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Maybe not, but he was responsible for being a candyass while our guys where held captive. Had he taken a harder line and been willing to go to war, either our guys would have been home sooner or maybe Iran would not be the rogue nation it is today. That was a great opportunity to send an unmistakable message–one does not fuck with Americans. Instead, the message sent was more like–America is a paper tiger. If Carter had invaded Iran the hostages would have been killed. The occupation of Iran would have been at least as expensive and frustrating as the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/34 "2011-01-21T00:48:17Z")
Look, I won’t say anybody else was to blame for Ronald Reagan’s final drug-tailspin, but I still have respect for him. Considering his age, he really was the hottest – certainly the most charismatic – male porn star of the 1970s. And equally memorable in gay and straight performances. Yes, I know, go away. This is the timeline **I** prefer to live in, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/35 "2011-01-21T00:50:12Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If Carter had invaded Iran the hostages would have been killed. The occupation of Iran would have been at least as expensive and frustrating as the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. At least. Iran is five times as big as Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/36 "2011-01-21T00:59:31Z")
Well, he was great for wealthy white guys. If you were a minority (welfare queen!), middle class, poor, black South African, or Central American, you may view his legacy differently. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/37 "2011-01-21T01:01:12Z")
You can use a person’s nostalgic esteem for Ronald Reagan as a reverse barometer for intelligence. Reagan was a reasonably competent cermonial head of State. He could give some nice line readings if a space shuttle blew up. When it came to actually running the country, he was an unmitigated disaster. His policies led to a decimation of the middle class which has never recovered, an adminsitration of record breaking corruption (with more than 100 indictments, arrests and investigations), the fostering of terrorist regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan (something Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda all have in common - they were all supported by Ronald Reagan), and was the only POTUS to commit treason while in office by trading arms to a sworn enemy of the United States (after that enemy had supplied the weapons to kill more than 200 US Marines in Beirut) in order to illegally fund a secret terrorist insurgency in South America, then lied through his teeth about it on national television. Trickle down economics was a sham and a fraud that stopped the rise of the American middle class and began the economic class regression that we’re still dealing with now. He had no major accomplishments, but I give him credit for raisng taxes (the biggest tax hike in US history - good on him), for giving amnesty to illegal aliens and for putting pro-choice nominees on the Supreme Court. Other than that, he sucked and his image as a great President is so much revisionist moonshine. I voted for the bastard, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/38 "2011-01-21T01:07:46Z")
[_Tear Down This Myth: The Right-Wing Distortion of the Reagan Legacy,_](http://www.amazon.com/Tear-Down-This-Myth-Right-Wing/dp/1416597638/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295571940&sr=8-1) by Will Bunch, is worth a look. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/39 "2011-01-21T01:12:01Z")
Just for the record, Reagan had absolutely nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Bloc. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/40 "2011-01-21T01:15:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Just for the record, Reagan had absolutely nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Bloc. [/QUOTE] Absolutely nothing? He had zero effect? Seriously, or are you being hyperbolic? -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379.md?page=3)