# Ronald Reagan's Legacy: Your Thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379 "2011-01-20T21:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/41 "2011-01-21T01:28:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Absolutely nothing? He had zero effect? Seriously, or are you being hyperbolic? > > -XT FWIW: From [_Armed Madhouse,_](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0525949682/sr=8-1/qid=1154309833/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8683277-1203300?ie=UTF8) by Greg Palast, Chapter 2, “The Flow,” discussing the neocons’ plan to break the back of OPEC by privatizing Iraq’s state-owned oil industry and opening it to free competition: > [@](#): > > [Saudi-born economist Nawaf] Obaid explained the oil facts of life. In the short term, Iraq’s fields were trashed even before saboteurs torched them. The CIA and the Pentagon knew it no matter what Wolfowitz said to bobble-headed Congressmen. In the long run, however, many years from now, Iraq, with 114 billion barrels of proven reserves, might be able to crank up above its OPEC quota. > > But that won’t happen. The globe is littered with the economic skeletons of nations that flagrantly busted their OPEC quotas. There’s the skeleton of Venezuela. In 1973, Venezuela broke the first Arab oil boycott. But in 1997, when Venezuela again ramped up production, punishment was swift. Saudi Arabia, which can live without big oil revenues for up to a year, opened its spigots and drowned the market. The price of oil dropped to $8 a barrel and Venezuela went bankrupt. Its government fell. The current President of that nation, Hugo Chavez, is now a very good member of OPEC, indeed its most frantic adherent to the quota system. > > **The Soviet Union was also given a price-cut whupping. In the 1980s, the Saudis dropped the price of oil to punish Russia for its wild expansion of oil-pumping capacity and for the Soviets’ invading Muslim Afghanistan. This choking loss of oil income had a lot more to do with the Soviet Union’s collapse than Ronald Reagan’s crooked smile.** > > Saudi Arabia has kept its economic knife sharp for Iraq if, under neo-con influence, Iraq were to exceed its OPEC quota. The war-stoked jump in oil prices put $120 billion in Saudi Arabia’s treasury in just one year (2004), triple its normal take. This gives the kingdom the cash to hold its breath economically should it need to drop the price of oil for a year to bring Iraq, or any quota-busting nation, to its knees. > > Besides, said Obaid, why should President Bush allow troublemakers at the Pentagon to use Iraq to attack the House of Saud when the Saudi royals were so supportive of Mr. Bush’s goals? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/42 "2011-01-21T01:30:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Trickle down economics was a sham and a fraud that stopped the rise of the American middle class and began the economic class regression that we’re still dealing with now. A Republican man-about-town Could make a smile vertical frown For, at finish, the heel Always made the girl kneel And let all the wealth trickle down! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/43 "2011-01-21T01:32:15Z")
That’s just Dio being Dio. But this particular point, Reagan and the Cold War, takes up so much air, that other issues, such as the one that I mentioned up thread, and one that has had far, far greater impact on the daily lives of Americans, often get ignored. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/44 "2011-01-21T01:35:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > Let’s talk about his legacy with race relations… > He once greeted his only black cabinet member (at a luncheon for mayors), “Hello Mr. Mayor. How are things in your city?” Not that I have any love for Reagan, but in the Aug. 30, 2010 New Yorker, Oliver Sacks wrote that Reagan is assumed to have suffered from some degree of face-blindness. His son Michael described Reagan introducing himself to him at his high school graduation, completely failing to recognize his son. He had great difficulty recognizing people out of the context in which he knew them. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/45 "2011-01-21T01:44:43Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Not that I have any love for Reagan, but in the Aug. 30, 2010 New Yorker, Oliver Sacks wrote that Reagan is assumed to have suffered from some degree of face-blindness. His son Michael described Reagan introducing himself to him at his high school graduation, completely failing to recognize his son. He had great difficulty recognizing people out of the context in which he knew them. Oops, it’s not in that particular article after all. I don’t know where I read it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/46 "2011-01-21T01:48:44Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Not that I have any love for Reagan, but in the Aug. 30, 2010 New Yorker, Oliver Sacks wrote that Reagan is assumed to have suffered from some degree of face-blindness. His son Michael described Reagan introducing himself to him at his high school graduation, completely failing to recognize his son. He had great difficulty recognizing people out of the context in which he knew them. Fair enough. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt regarding that one incident. I’ll remove that particular bullet point and replace it with Reagan’s opposition to the Voting Rights Act of 1964 (prior to its being up for renewal in 1982), which he declared was “humiliating to the South”. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/47 "2011-01-21T02:21:36Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Carter is somebody who I often heard from liberal professors especially “good men don’t all make good leaders”. I’m increasingly convinced now that he’s not even that good a man- numerous firsthand and secondhand anecdotes from people I trust indicate he’s actually quite the prick. Indeed, I’d argue that Carter the man is overrated, and Carter the President is underrated. A lot of things that happened weren’t his fault, and he did have some meaningful accomplishments. Of course some of the things I’d give him credit for are things like his [deregulation efforts](http://mises.org/daily/535), which no doubt were horrible errors to some. Of course that’s the way threads like this usually go; people praise or condemn largely based on whether or not the person acted in accord with their political philosophy. Reagan was pretty obviously a very significant president, and most of the ones around him (Ford, Carter, Bush 1, Clinton) were not. Doesn’t mean they were bad, but I doubt any of them will have the historical influence (good or bad) that Reagan did. My own politics say that he massively increased the deficit and the size of government and ramped up a disastrous war on drugs (bad), but that he also generally liberalized the marketplace and only gave lip service to his more strident social-conservative supporters (good). The idea that he single-handedly won the cold war is obviously a myth; but numerous dissidents in Eastern Europe (e.g. Lech Walesa) said that Reagan’s Evil Empire rhetoric emboldened them, and certainly plenty of NATO leaders (Thatcher, Kohl) of the era gave him lots of credit. Arguing that he just happened to be there when communism collapsed all on its own (after lasting most of a century) is ignorant, stupid, or both. Nazism was undone more by the invasion of Russia than anything else; that doesn’t mean that in evaluating FDR we deny him credit for winning WWII. Ditto Reagan. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/48 "2011-01-21T02:23:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Absolutely nothing? He had zero effect? Seriously, or are you being hyperbolic? > > -XT If anything, I’m overstating his impact. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/49 "2011-01-21T02:50:44Z")
[QUOTE=furt] Reagan was pretty obviously a very significant president, and most of the ones around him (Ford, Carter, Bush 1, Clinton) were not. [/QUOTE] You don’t believe Clinton was significant? All presidents are significant but there is what I call the “Chester” factor after Chester A. Arthur. Mention Chester Arthur to most college freshmen and very few will have any idea he was ever president (“We had a president named Chester?”)and of those very few who do very few could probably tell you much about him other than “became president when Garfield was shot”. Some just aren’t that associated with a major event or act or change in the public mind and aren’t remembered. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/50 "2011-01-21T03:16:20Z")
He wasn’t a mental giant but you don’t necessarily need that to be a great leader. See: Jimmy Carter. Reagan was exactly what the country needed after who I think was at least in the top 5 of the worst U.S presidents in history. Carter couldn’t inspire a decent bowel movement. As an angst ridden teen during the Carter years and watching Night Line with Ted Koppel before bed and watching President mopey on the tube on a nightly basis certainly didn’t improve my mood any either. I won’t claim that Reagan brought down the Soviet Union single handed but for liberals to claim he had no effect at all in their downfall are just overly biased and refuse to give any credit to the man at all. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/51 "2011-01-21T03:29:39Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If anything, I’m overstating his impact. [/QUOTE] Ah, well, I see it was a major concession on your part. 😛 Out of curiosity, why should anyone take you seriously when you say something like this? It’s so ridiculous that the fact you take it seriously puts into question your grasp of even basic reality. I mean, EVERY president has some effect on the events that take place during his presidency. Reagan certainly interacted with the Russians directly, so to claim he had zero effect is, well, rather silly. Back on planet reality, I’d say how much effect he had is certainly debatable. But for liberals to say he has no positive legacy or had no events during his presidency is on par with the conservatives who say the same thing about Clinton…or even Carter. It’s hard to take seriously anyone who allows their partisan blinders to become that opaque… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/52 "2011-01-21T03:34:19Z")
He had no effect at all. None. Zero. It’s also dittohead mythology that Carter was a particularly bad President. Nixon, Reagan and W were all much worse. Reagan probably took the most lasting shit on the country in the most significant, indelible ways. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/53 "2011-01-21T03:38:19Z")
There goes another irony meter… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/54 "2011-01-21T03:40:55Z")
I voted for the dick. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/55 "2011-01-21T03:42:48Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Absolutely nothing? He had zero effect? Seriously, or are you being hyperbolic? > > -XT Well, he stated it, didn’t he? Sheeze. And now that’s it’s later in the thread he can even use that post as a cite. What part of **Dio** don’t you get? \ Ha. I’m prescient. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/56 "2011-01-21T03:47:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Reagan] had no effect at all. None. Zero. > > … Reagan probably took the most lasting shit on the country in the most significant, indelible ways. Umm . . . Hell, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/57 "2011-01-21T03:47:38Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I voted for the dick. [/QUOTE] Assuming you meant Tricky Dick, I wasn’t old enough to vote then. I voted for Carter. What can I say? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/58 "2011-01-21T03:48:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > There goes another irony meter… Nah, just another **Diogenes the Cynic** absolutionist tirade with only a tangential relationship to reality. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/59 "2011-01-21T03:51:47Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Nah, just another **Diogenes the Cynic** absolutionist tirade with only a tangential relationship to reality. > > Stranger I think you meant “absolutist”. Unless **Dio** has recently joined the clergy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379/60 "2011-01-21T03:52:48Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Umm . . . > > Hell, never mind. Perfect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ronald-reagans-legacy-your-thoughts/568379.md?page=4)