# Ross and Rachel **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 5, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539 "2011-08-05T03:41:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grapefruit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@Grapefruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grapefruit)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/21 "2011-08-05T20:58:55Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > (By the way, **Grapefruit** , rush out and get _Moonlighting_, you are in for a treat! Start with season one; you really have to follow it chronologically). I will look into it! Actually, I sort of did on [amazon.com](http://amazon.com)… Bruce Willis used to look like THAT? WTF? > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > …and end as soon as it starts going down hill. It doesn’t get better. It just keeps plummeting. When does it plummet? > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > We recently had an extended discussion of _Friends_, Ross, Rachel and “We were on a break!”: ["We were on a break!" - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=617238) > > Just about everyone thought Ross was right to one degree or another. Yes, yes… I saw that thread. But what I was looking for was less of the discussion regarding the _draaaama_ and more about how their relationship did start off quite sweet and just made more and more ridiculous as time passes. I mean, they had a child together, and they’re STILL not getting married? Pffffff. ---
**Author:** ![locamochagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/73ab20/32.png) [@locamochagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/locamochagirl)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/22 "2011-08-05T22:02:59Z")
Well they had to go on and on and on in order to keep the show fresh. I think their popularity stems from the fact that Friends was so popular at that time. Think back to the mid-90s. What other show was largely successful that features a romantic sub plot? I can think of Friends and Fraiser - neither which had that Romantic subplot. I guess that’s my “theory.” ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/23 "2011-08-05T22:33:19Z")
> [@Grapefruit](#): > > Were there no other sitcom couples that went through these cycles? J.D. and Elliott on _Scrubs_ were nearly as convoluted, but they didn’t get back together for good until after _Scrubs_ jumped the shark. ---
**Author:** ![clarkstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@clarkstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clarkstar)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/24 "2011-08-05T23:01:22Z")
first thing i thought of was sam and diane. i found both ross and rachel and j.d. and eliot’s relationships frustrating… ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/25 "2011-08-05T23:09:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I will look into it! Actually, I sort of did on [amazon.com](http://amazon.com)… Bruce Willis used to look like THAT? WTF? Hell, hon, you should see how young and hot \*I \*looked in the mid-80s! > [@](#): > > When does it plummet? As soon as Maddie and Dave sleep together (season 3? 4? I forget). Right at that point, you eject the DVD and walk away. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/26 "2011-08-05T23:15:18Z")
Just make sure that you see the episode of Moonlighting called Atomic Shakespeare before you give up on it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/27 "2011-08-05T23:17:06Z")
> [@Grapefruit](#): > > I will look into it! Actually, I sort of did on [amazon.com](http://amazon.com)… Bruce Willis used to look like THAT? WTF?\ Funnily enough, I never thought Bruce Willis was very hot when he was young (he looked too cocky, or full of himself, or something). I think he’s much better looking now. I’ve watched all the sitcoms here (Cheers, Friends, and Scrubs), and I think Ross and Rachel are sort of the Gold Standard of on-again, off-again relationships. Sam and Diane were the prototypical “don’t stick your dick in the crazy.” ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/28 "2011-08-06T00:01:10Z")
> [@Grapefruit](#): > > So not only were they “Will they, won’t they”, they were the epitome of “On again, off again”. Were there no other sitcom couples that went through these cycles? I guess if it came down to it, Ross and Rachel would be defined as “On again, off again”? If someone referred to a couple on another show as a “Ross and Rachel” pairing, I’d take this to mean that they kept getting together and breaking up again and again and not just that there was doubt as to whether they’d ever get together. The latter has been done in plenty of TV shows (and other media), with the biggest recent example probably being Jim and Pam in the first three seasons of _The Office_. But while there were some strains on their relationship they never broke up once they got together, so I’d consider Jim and Pam a “Will they or won’t they?” couple without being a “Ross and Rachel” couple. There have been other TV couples who broke up and got back together again, sometimes more than once (_Glee_ has done this with multiple couples, somewhat justified in that they’re all teenagers), but _Friends_ kept the cycle going for TEN YEARS. There may be soap operas that have done the same, I dunno, but for primetime TV shows that’s probably a record and one I doubt will be broken soon. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/29 "2011-08-06T00:01:36Z")
If Sam and Diane is a prototypical “don’t stick your dick in the crazy” then it’s applicable to both genders. The great thing about those two is that they were evenly matched and equally passionate, which generally meant that Sam kept up with her in terms of bad behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/30 "2011-08-06T00:44:50Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > How about Miss Brooks and Mr. Boynton from **Our Miss Brooks** (1952-56)? It was more of a “man-hungry spinster chases mama’s boy” relationship, but it was definitely on again/off again and did have a certain amount of “will they or won’t they?” built in. > > (By the way, **Grapefruit** , rush out and get _Moonlighting_, you are in for a treat! Start with season one; you really have to follow it chronologically). By the way, wecome back to Cafe Society, Eve! Boy, have we missed you here. I always thought Miss Brooks was closer to a Zelda Gilroy/Dobie Gillis “he’ll fight it but you know eventually they’ll end up together” dynamic than a true will they or won’t they. Oddly, one genuine “will they or won’t they” relationship was Johnny Fever and Bailey Quarters on _WKRP in Cincinatti_. She obviously had a crush on him, he’d be oblivious to it, then one of them would awkwardly try to make a move but something would interfere. And in the end, they never did get together. ---
**Author:** ![Grapefruit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@Grapefruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grapefruit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/31 "2011-08-06T19:49:02Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > J.D. and Elliott on _Scrubs_ were nearly as convoluted, but they didn’t get back together for good until after _Scrubs_ jumped the shark. But for future sitcoms, I doubt anyone will refer to those type of relationships as “J.D. and Elliot” relationships… because a) I doubt Scrubs entered public consciousness like Friends did and b) “Ross and Rachel” came first. For what it’s worth, J.D. and Elliot got back together in season eight, which ended up being a very good season… > [@clarkstar](#): > > first thing i thought of was sam and diane. i found both ross and rachel and j.d. and eliot’s relationships frustrating… What did you think about the lead up to Ross and Rachel’s relationship? Did “WE WERE ON A BREAK!!!” taint the whole thing for you? > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’ve watched all the sitcoms here (Cheers, Friends, and Scrubs), and I think Ross and Rachel are sort of the Gold Standard of on-again, off-again relationships. Sam and Diane were the prototypical “don’t stick your dick in the crazy.” So I gather from all these comments about “Sam and Diane” that Diane was more bitchy and selfish than Rachel? Do I really have to watch Cheers to get that relationship? Btw, seeing Bruce Willis like that is just weird. He’s neither attractive nor unattractive, but I’m used to seeing him as this action-movie-macho-guy. > [@Lamia](#): > > There may be soap operas that have done the same, I dunno, but for primetime TV shows that’s probably a record and one I doubt will be broken soon. That’s a pretty good explanation on why “Ross and Rachel” is so definitive. Basically, they were the couple that dragged it on for the longest time. > [@kunilou](#): > > Oddly, one genuine “will they or won’t they” relationship was Johnny Fever and Bailey Quarters on _WKRP in Cincinatti_. She obviously had a crush on him, he’d be oblivious to it, then one of them would awkwardly try to make a move but something would interfere. And in the end, they never did get together. Is a true “Will they, won’t they?” be something that keeps you on the edge of your seat, wondering? I always thought that Ross and Rachel WOULD end up together. Not so for J.D. and Elliot, though. I stopped wondering after Elliot slept with Dan. And if the sexual tension is never “resolved”, was it ever a “Will they, won’t they?” to begin with? Seems like a lot of those end up being “They will!” ---
**Author:** ![AndyLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AndyLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyLee)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/32 "2011-08-06T19:56:03Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > In the early episodes, the characters were pretty evenly matched in terms of good / bad personality traits. Diane was certainly full of herself, but to be fair, so was Sam. It was only in the Diane’s last year that she became insufferable. And that was deliberate - when actress Shelley Long made it clear that she wouldn’t continue with the show after five years, the writers intentionally wrote her character as less likeable so that the audience wouldn’t miss her when she left. I think this is correct. I think if Diane would have been a true intellectual it would’ve made the series better. I also never bought the Ross and Rachel thing. Rachel simply hears that Ross has always loved her and instantly falls for him too. Too focred for my taste ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/33 "2011-08-06T20:05:07Z")
> [@Grapefruit](#): > > I will look into it! Actually, I sort of did on [amazon.com](http://amazon.com)… Bruce Willis used to look like THAT? WTF? Because you never get the chance to quote something like this: David and Maddie meet the Security Gurd Security Officer: I’m sorry, but you’re not on the guest list. David Addison: That’s because we’re not guests. We’re looking for a man with a mole on his nose. Security Officer: A mole on his nose? Maddie Hayes: A mole on his nose. Security Officer: [to Maddie] What kind of clothes? Maddie Hayes: [to David] What kind of clothes? David Addison: What kind of clothes do you suppose? Security Officer: What kind of clothes do I suppose would be worn by a man with a mole on his nose? Who knows? David Addison: Did I happen to mention, did I bother to disclose, that this man that we’re seeking with the mole on his nose? I’m not sure of his clothes or anything else, except he’s Chinese, a big clue by itself. Maddie Hayes: How do you do that? David Addison: Gotta read a lot of Dr. Seuss. Security Officer: I’m sorry to say, I’m sad to report, I haven’t seen anyone at all of that sort. Not a man who’s Chinese with a mole on his nose with some kind of clothes that you can’t suppose. So get away from this door and get out of this place, or I’ll have to hurt you - put my foot in your face. **Grapefruit** , the above isn’t really spoilage as it is an example of the writing in _Moonlighting_. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/34 "2011-08-06T23:53:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Because you never get the chance to quote something like this: > > David and Maddie meet the Security Gurd > > Security Officer: I’m sorry, but you’re not on the guest list. > David Addison: That’s because we’re not guests. We’re looking for a man with a mole on his nose. > Security Officer: A mole on his nose? > Maddie Hayes: A mole on his nose. > Security Officer: [to Maddie] What kind of clothes? > Maddie Hayes: [to David] What kind of clothes? > David Addison: What kind of clothes do you suppose? > Security Officer: What kind of clothes do I suppose would be worn by a man with a mole on his nose? Who knows? > David Addison: Did I happen to mention, did I bother to disclose, that this man that we’re seeking with the mole on his nose? I’m not sure of his clothes or anything else, except he’s Chinese, a big clue by itself. > Maddie Hayes: How do you do that? > David Addison: Gotta read a lot of Dr. Seuss. > Security Officer: I’m sorry to say, I’m sad to report, I haven’t seen anyone at all of that sort. Not a man who’s Chinese with a mole on his nose with some kind of clothes that you can’t suppose. So get away from this door and get out of this place, or I’ll have to hurt you - put my foot in your face. > > **Grapefruit** , the above isn’t really spoilage as it is an example of the writing in _Moonlighting_. Madman! [You have to post the clip for the full effect!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Mh3n6ffl4) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/35 "2011-08-07T00:10:48Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > For what it’s worth (I can’t find a cite), I recall David Schwimmer saying that he thought the series went on about two seasons too long, and the six characters continuing to hang out at the coffee shop for all those years just didn’t feel organic anymore at that stage in their lives. So you weren’t the only one who thought that. That’s probably because Schwimmer was roughly five years older than Ross. So while he was playing a character who was just getting ready to settle down for the second time at 30-32, the real Schwimmer was in his mid-to-late 30s and probably wasn’t into it anymore. Read some of the gripes from the How I Met Your Mother cast, it’s the same story. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/36 "2011-08-07T02:20:08Z")
> [@Grapefruit](#): > > So I gather from all these comments about “Sam and Diane” that Diane was more bitchy and selfish than Rachel? Do I really have to watch Cheers to get that relationship? Here’s one little bit of dialog from Cheers that sums it up nicely. Dianne: Funny how things change, isn’t it? Sam: Yes. Dianne: l still remember the first time l came in here. What a prissy little snot l was. Sam: Yeah. Who would have thought it could get worse? And **silenus** thanks for reminding everyone that for one brief shining moment (or at least, by my estimate, up to the middle of the third season) _Moonlighting_ was one of the best shows in the history of TV. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/37 "2011-08-07T02:36:55Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > And **silenus** thanks for reminding everyone that for one brief shining moment (or at least, by my estimate, up to the middle of the third season) _Moonlighting_ was one of the best shows in the history of TV. The [high point](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZMk5MklF4) of the whole series. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/38 "2011-08-07T03:10:12Z")
IME the trope started with Luke and Laura from General Hospital. Not that the overall situation isn’t as old as humans, but GH went from desperate to cultural phenomenon with that one ridiculous relationship. They also started the tradition of letting it go on wayyyyyy too long, then rushing the denouement when they finally catch on that we’re sick of it - such that the final event is campy, unsatisfying, and poorly written enough to tank the show. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/39 "2011-08-07T03:22:05Z")
Whoa… **Eve** ’s back! Welcome back, **Eve**! I had to look at the dates because i saw your name and thought someone had resurrected a zombie thread… Part of _Moonlighting_’s problem was the feud between the two stars. There were weeks at a time with no new episode because of the infighting. They actual lampshaded the late new episodes IN THE SHOW, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539/40 "2011-08-07T06:04:00Z")
> [@Grapefruit](#): > > But for future sitcoms, I doubt anyone will refer to those type of relationships as “J.D. and Elliot” relationships… because a) I doubt Scrubs entered public consciousness like Friends did and b) “Ross and Rachel” came first. > … This. It will always be “Ross and Rachel.” The back and forth they experienced was, in my opinion, largely unprecedented. There have been WTOWT couples, there have probably even been couples that broke up then got back together. But they were on and off so many times, it blasted past that precedent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ross-and-rachel/591539.md?page=3)