# ROTJ, in 1983 what did people think Palpatine was? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 11, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621 "2013-03-11T08:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/21 "2013-03-11T15:23:59Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Just out of curiosity, is this “first Star Wars novel” a novelization of the first movie or is it the first novel of the “Expanded Universe”? There was a novelization released at the same time as the movie. The official author was George Lucas, though I’ve heard it was actually penned by Alan Dean Foster. It included 16 pages of color photos from the movie, which was pretty wild for the time. It did mention Senator/Emperor Palpatine in the first chapter. And Han shot first. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/22 "2013-03-11T15:30:59Z")
I remember seeing that on the paperback rack of a department store, must have been just a few weeks before the film came out. I had no foreknowledge of the film’s release, and read the back cover to decide whether I wanted to buy it. Even to my 15-year-old self it sounded contrived and derivative. I passed. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/23 "2013-03-11T15:32:43Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Just out of curiosity, is this “first Star Wars novel” a novelization of the first movie or is it the first novel of the “Expanded Universe”? Yes, the novelisation of the first movie. But from Empire Strikes Back through to the resurgence of the Expanded Universe in the early 90s, even though it was pretty clearly spelled out in that prologue, nobody seemed to officially refer to the Emperor as Palpatine at any point. The first time it was starting to be adopted was, I think, when Cam Kennedy was drawing the _Dark Empire_ comics for the story about the Emperor cloning himself. [QUOTE=Journal of the Whills] Another galaxy, another time. The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that… it was the Republic. Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match. So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside. Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears. Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions. But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic. From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples… _From the First Saga Journal of the Whills_ They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes. _Leia Organa of Alderaan, Senator_ [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/24 "2013-03-11T15:58:36Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > There was a novelization released at the same time as the movie. The official author was George Lucas, though I’ve heard it was actually penned by Alan Dean Foster. It included 16 pages of color photos from the movie, which was pretty wild for the time. It did mention Senator/Emperor Palpatine in the first chapter. And Han shot first. Did George change the novel, too? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/25 "2013-03-11T16:00:13Z")
Hm - better move my copy to a safe deposit box. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/26 "2013-03-11T16:44:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > What’s the difference? Most people think of sorcery as being a different type of magic. Yoda comes across more like a psychic martial arts master than a sorcerer. He’s not brewing potions or casting spells, but training a kid how to fight. He’s more mystical than magical. Not that I think that’s too relevant to people who thought that the Emperor was a sorcerer. Just pointing out why it seems odd to me to give Yoda such a title. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/27 "2013-03-11T16:47:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > “The Force” is the SW universe’s magic system. I see no difference between calling someone a Force user and calling someone a sorcerer. General Motti: Don’t try to frighten us with your **sorcerer’s** ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn’t helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels’ hidden fortre–\ Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/28 "2013-03-11T17:04:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Most people think of sorcery as being a different type of magic. Yoda comes across more like a psychic martial arts master than a sorcerer. He’s not brewing potions or casting spells, but training a kid how to fight. He’s more mystical than magical. > > Not that I think that’s too relevant to people who thought that the Emperor was a sorcerer. Just pointing out why it seems odd to me to give Yoda such a title. The way I see it, the key difference between magic and psychic powers is that magic is external, while psychic powers are internal. Magic comes from some outside source - demons, other dimensions, mana, what have you - while psychic powers come from the user’s own mind. In Ep. IV, Obi-Wan clearly describes the Force as something that “surrounds all living beings”; in other words, an external force. That makes it magic. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/29 "2013-03-11T17:17:42Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I had seen the movie before the prequels and it seemed intuitive that emperor Palpatine was a force user of some type, even though that isn’t explicitly spelled out in the film. I was reading something making the argument that is a retcon and originally in ROTJ he is just a sort of sinister sorcerer type character, which makes no sense since the SW setting makes pretty clear magic doesn’t exist outside force users etc. To get back to the OP – we thought the Emperor was the frakkin’ Emperor! He was Darth Vader’s more eeeevil boss, and I also do not understand why there would be any reason to differentiate between a wizard, a sorcerer, or a Force User within the framework of the movies. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/30 "2013-03-11T17:30:11Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Does anyone else think this is the dumbest “rule” ever? 😉 YES! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/31 "2013-03-11T17:46:16Z")
The novelization of ROTJ at the time referred to the Emperor as Palpatine. It also had some dialogue that indicated Palpatine knew Yoda and had sussed out from Luke that Yoda had given Luke some training. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/32 "2013-03-11T17:50:43Z")
Vader and Palpatine are both looking to recruit Luke. Vader, being “more machine than man”, cannot defeat Palpatine alone. Palpatine knows that a still 90% “human” Luke would be a far more powerful apprentice going forward than lava-roasted/walking iron lung Vader. They both know exactly the other one is up to… that’s just how the Sith roll. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/33 "2013-03-11T18:00:44Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > Vader and Palpatine are both looking to recruit Luke. Vader, being “more machine than man”, cannot defeat Palpatine alone. Palpatine knows that a still 90% “human” Luke would be a far more powerful apprentice going forward than lava-roasted/walking iron lung Vader. By the transitive property, father and son could team up with the Emperor without breaking the Rule Of Two if Luke would just lose some more body parts. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/34 "2013-03-11T18:10:15Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The novelization of ROTJ at the time referred to the Emperor as Palpatine. It also had some dialogue that indicated Palpatine knew Yoda and had sussed out from Luke that Yoda had given Luke some training. The ROTJ novelization also contains the Cliff’s Notes version of his backstory - he was a Senator from a backwater planet, then “President of the Republic”, then declared himself Emperor at the end of the Clone Wars. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/35 "2013-03-11T20:37:05Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Hmmm. Tangential question, that’s probably been discussed before but I don’t recall seeing it: in ROTJ, a major plot point is that the Emperor wants to lure Luke to the Dark Side. In the prequels, a major plot point is that there can only be two “Dark Lords of the Sith” at any one time. Does Vader forget that, if Luke joins the Dark Side, he (Vader) will be toast? The Emperor was done with Vader. His goal all along was to turn Luke and have Luke replace Vader as his apprentice. Vader was, in theory, looking to turn Luke and offered to have them both over throw teh Emperor but I think you can make a case that that was a lie Vader told to try and seduce Luke and he was always loyal to Palpatine until the end of Jedi. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/36 "2013-03-11T23:05:15Z")
The whole “only ever two” thing makes a lot more sense when you realize that it only applies to the Sith, who are just a sub-type of “Dark Force Users.” The Sith didn’t invent the Dark Side, and they’re not gatekeepers who determine who is and is not going to turn to the Dark Side. Anyone who is strong in the Force who allows himself to be overcome by anger, despair, or greed can turn to the Dark Side. The Sith are a specific cult of Dark Force users. Their strict one master/one apprentice set up is unique to their order. It’s important also to remember that the Sith are a cult. They’re not acting out of rational self-interest, but in pursuit of a religious ideology that places strength as the ultimate (if not sole) virtue. A lot of people ask why a Sith would get an apprentice when they know for a fact that their apprentice will eventually try to kill them. I think, however, that to a Sith, that’s the entire point of having an apprentice. The Sith believe that only the strongest can be master of their order. A Sith master, therefore, is always training his own assassin, because if he can train someone to be strong enough to kill him, then he has advanced the cause of the Sith order itself by ensuring that it’s leader is the strongest person possible. Vader’s offer to Luke was, I think, mostly legit - however, it was preconditioned on Luke turning to the Dark Side. The entire duel between Vader and Luke is a psychodrama designed to push Luke over the edge and get him to embrace the Dark Side, with both Vader and the Emperor trying to maneuver Luke so he’s pointing at the other guy when he finally goes off. Vader stopped Luke from striking down the Emperor at the beginning, because Luke wasn’t close enough to the edge then. Killing the Emperor at that point wouldn’t have turned Luke - rather, it would have resolved a lot of the tensions in Luke that were pushing him to the Dark Side in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/37 "2013-03-11T23:15:58Z")
When ROTJ came out, we had just seen two whole movies which bludgeoned us with the light side/dark side business. It never occurred to me to think of Palpatine as anything other than a dark side Force user. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/38 "2013-03-12T18:18:36Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > When Dark Horse comics was planning to write about the early years of the Jedi (I think it was the _Tales of the Jedi_ series) they needed a Dark Jedi-like enemy that they could set against their main characters, and George said “well, why not use the Sith?” and everyone said… “Er… well who are the Sith? Nobody knows what they are.” That’s when George finally revealed that they were the dark users of the Force, and that only two were ever in existence at a time, Master and Apprentice, who constantly succeed each other in hierarchy. Actually, the Rule of Two didn’t come out until the movie. Before that, there were multiple Siths. And even after the ROT was established, it was often violated, as well as there were other Sith practicioners out there. (The Lost Tribe of the Sith) ---
**Author:** ![edwards\_beard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@edwards\_beard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwards_beard)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/39 "2013-03-12T20:34:17Z")
I guess I didn’t pay close enough attention to the prequels… I assumed there could be more than one Sith, but each Sith Lord had one apprentice. I guess for some reason I assumed at one time that Dooku/Darth Tyranus was Palpatine/Darth Sideous’ apprentice. But it sounds more like he is simply a dark Jedi rather than a Sith, but then what is the difference between a dark Jedi and a Sith apprentice? ETA: I know Yoda said in TPM something like “Always two, no more, no less, a master and an apprentice” but I read that mean that if you’re dealing with a Sith, be aware that there is another involved in some way… ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621/40 "2013-03-12T20:51:52Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I had seen the movie before the prequels and it seemed intuitive that emperor Palpatine was a force user of some type, even though that isn’t explicitly spelled out in the film. He shot lightning out of his fingers, had the very powerful force user Vader bowing and calling him Master, and right before trying to kill Luke, told him “Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the Dark Side.” I don’t think you get much more explicit than that. Did I mention he _shot lightning out of his fingers_? > [@](#): > > I was reading something making the argument that is a retcon and originally in ROTJ he is just a sort of sinister sorcerer type character, which makes no sense since the SW setting makes pretty clear magic doesn’t exist outside force users etc. I’m curious as to where you read this, 'cause it sounds like a pretty weak argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-in-1983-what-did-people-think-palpatine-was/652621.md?page=3)