# RoTJ Question
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [July 1, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010 "2004-07-01T04:28:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Electronic\_Chaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electronic_Chaos)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/1 "2004-07-01T04:28:35Z")
At the end of Return of the Jedi, with Luke and Vader’s big fight, the duel ends when Luke chops Vader’s hand off. After this, Vader appears to be severly weakend, and only survives after he throws the Emporer into the…whatever that thing was. When I first saw it, I just assumed that he died of the Emporer’s Force lightning, but then realized that Luke endured it for much longer than Vader. Plus, Vader seems to be dying after his hand is cut off. Any explanations for this? Was Lucas relying on suspension of disbelief, or was Vader’s hand an extremely important part of him?
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### Author:  [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/2 "2004-07-01T04:33:30Z")
The Star Wars diehards might offer a “story” reason, but I think Lucas simply saw no need to continue the fight once it was clear that Luke was more powerful than Vader.
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### Author:  [@BraheSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BraheSilver)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/3 "2004-07-01T04:36:40Z")
In SW-speak, Vader’s suit was his iron lung/pacemaker/probably dialysis machine, and he had extra cybernetics thrown in. Being hit by lightning would have messed all that up something fierce. His connection to the Dark Side kept him alive as well, and by turning away from it while saving his son he lost that ability. Luke was still young and healthy and in tune with the Light.
Still, it’s hard to make an ultimate sacrifice without killing yourself, so for purposes of the story he _had_ to die.
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### Author:  [@Electronic\_Chaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electronic_Chaos)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/4 "2004-07-01T05:14:43Z")
> [@BraheSilver](#):
>
> In SW-speak, Vader’s suit was his iron lung/pacemaker/probably dialysis machine, and he had extra cybernetics thrown in. Being hit by lightning would have messed all that up something fierce. His connection to the Dark Side kept him alive as well, and by turning away from it while saving his son he lost that ability. Luke was still young and healthy and in tune with the Light.
>
> Still, it’s hard to make an ultimate sacrifice without killing yourself, so for purposes of the story he _had_ to die.
I actually thought of the whole electricity-sensitive suit thing after I typed everything. I didn’t think of his connection to the dark side keeping him alive.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/5 "2004-07-01T05:25:26Z")
It’s been a while since I’ve seen RoTJ. Maybe the Emperor wasn’t going full blast because he wanted Luke to suffer a bit before the end. After turning against his master the Emperor turns up the juice to protect himself against Vader. Vader in his weakened state couldn’t take the strain.
Marc
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/6 "2004-07-01T13:40:34Z")
Although it may have looked like electricity, I never thought it was – it’s kinda purplish color, right? It’s some sort of concentration of the Dark Side of the Force, which Luke (being firmly on the Right Side of the F) was able to resist for longer than Vader. Plus, Vader having been under the Emperor’s control for so long, was more susceptible to his power.
Plus, of course, filmic necessity. The audience needs to see Luke suffer, because that’s what Vader sees, and so time must elongated for that sequence. The audience doesn’t need to see Vader suffer, we know that the Emperor’s zapping him, so that bit can be short.
BTW, I hate that I have to call him “Vader” now. That great line from the first movie, “You can’t win, Darth” has completely changed meaning from when we thought it was Vader’s first name, to now that it’s just a title.
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### Author:  [@Duderdude2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duderdude2)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/7 "2004-07-01T18:04:33Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#):
>
> BTW, I hate that I have to call him “Vader” now. That great line from the first movie, “You can’t win, Darth” has completely changed meaning from when we thought it was Vader’s first name, to now that it’s just a title.
What do you mean? Vader’s his first name?
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### Author:  [@Jenny\_Haniver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenny_Haniver)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/8 "2004-07-01T18:25:26Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#):
>
> The Star Wars diehards might offer a “story” reason, but I think Lucas simply saw no need to continue the fight once it was clear that Luke was more powerful than Vader.
Dork nit-pick:
Cutting off Vader’s hand didn’t prove anything of the sort - it shows how near Luke was to being lost to the Dark Side. It showed the Emporor’s plan truely was to turn Luke by having him kill his father, so cutting off Vader’s hand was really Luke almost losing the fight that matters. The fight scene didn’t continue because Luke controlled his anger and fear and refused to end it - _that_ is how he won.
/Dork nit-pick.
**Dude** Vader would then be his appropriately scary name to go the Darth title, and, I must agree, totally lame.
But given the quality (ahem) of the prequel triology, I’m pretty sure that when all this hubbub is over and George Lucas break down and released the original movies on DVD, when people talk about Darth - everybody will think of Darth Vader, and maaaaybe Darth Maul. Certainly not Darth Saruman. None of the Darths since it became a title have been as cool, and just don’t grip the imagination the way Darth Vader does.
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/9 "2004-07-02T04:57:43Z")
> [@Jenny Haniver](#):
>
> Dork nit-pick:
>
> Cutting off Vader’s hand didn’t prove anything of the sort - it shows how near Luke was to being lost to the Dark Side. It showed the Emporor’s plan truely was to turn Luke by having him kill his father, so cutting off Vader’s hand was really Luke almost losing the fight that matters. The fight scene didn’t continue because Luke controlled his anger and fear and refused to end it - _that_ is how he won.
First, since his hand was a prosthetic, it being cut off didn’t hurt him at all. I like the Dark Side explanation, but I always thought that the Emperor turned down the bolts because he was torturing Luke, whereas with Vader he was fighting for his life.
IIRC, Luke looks at his own artificial hand after he cuts of his father’s, which shows him how closely connected they are. This seems to me to be the thing that made him control his anger and resist the lure of the Dark Side.
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### Author:  [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/10 "2004-07-02T12:10:42Z")
> [@Duderdude2](#):
>
> What do you mean? Vader’s his first name?
Not his first name, just his name. Darth is a title, as in Darth Vader, Darth Maul, and Darth Sidious. Basically they were on the Darth side of the Force.
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### Author:  [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/11 "2004-07-02T12:40:46Z")
Hey, guys…how did Mr. Vader pick up the Emperor and throw him down the nearly-bottomless pit with only one hand?
Also, who the heck has a nearly-bottomless pit in their office, or chambers, or whatever? Why would an Emperor, of all people, have one?
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### Author:  [@Jenny\_Haniver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenny_Haniver)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/12 "2004-07-02T13:13:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> IIRC, Luke looks at his own artificial hand after he cuts of his father’s, which shows him how closely connected they are. This seems to me to be the thing that made him control his anger and resist the lure of the Dark Side.
Isn’t this what I said? he cut off Vader’s hand because he lost control, then, realizing what had happened and how close he was to _becoming Vader_, as he’d seen on Dagobah, he reigned himself in and tossed his weapon away, thus winning the fight against the dark side internally, which is all that mattered.
I never got the feeling the Emperor was toning the zappiness down for Luke; I always figured that the combination of the bolts frying the suit and abandoning the Dark Side, which had been keeping him together, finished off Vader.
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### Author:  [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/13 "2004-07-02T13:36:20Z")
Yes it’s really about Luke’s emotional state. He cuts off Vader’s hand is a symbolic turn around from ESB. But it is Luke getting Biblical on Vader’s ass after Vader threatens to go after Leia that matters.
Of course Vader’s severed hand is still holding his light saber so he is completly helpless. So, in a what was obviously a tip of the hat to Star Trek TOS, Luke defies the emperor and won’t kill Vader.
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### Author:  [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)
#### Post date: [July 2, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/14 "2004-07-02T23:27:22Z")
> [@BraheSilver](#):
>
> In SW-speak, Vader’s suit was his iron lung/pacemaker/probably dialysis machine, and he had extra cybernetics thrown in. Being hit by lightning would have messed all that up something fierce.
Wouldn’t the circuitry of the suit in question also suffer some impairment from the loss of the hand-part? It seems to me that it would have to remain completely intact (from helmet to boots) to function efficiently, no?
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### Author:  [@Parallax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parallax)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/15 "2004-07-03T00:10:21Z")
> [@BraheSilver](#):
>
> In SW-speak, Vader’s suit was his iron lung/pacemaker/probably dialysis machine, and he had extra cybernetics thrown in. Being hit by lightning would have messed all that up something fierce.
Yup. Listen to his breathing after he throws the Emperor - it is very labored and raspy - it seems that his suit is failing.
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/16 "2004-07-03T01:21:26Z")
Originally Posted by Duderdude2
> [@](#):
>
> What do you mean? Vader’s his first name?
Response by dantheman:
> [@](#):
>
> Not his first name, just his name. Darth is a title, as in Darth Vader, Darth Maul, and Darth Sidious. Basically they were on the Darth side of the Force.
I’m sorry if I was unclear. When STAR WARS came out, Ben Kenobi has his confrontation with Darth Vader, and says (I’m going from memory here), “You can’t win, Darth.” The implication is that Darth is his first name, Vader his last name. So, Obi-Wan is the teacher speaking kindly to his student gone astray: “You can’t win, Darth.” It was touching, it was an attempt to speak to whatever good was left in Vader.
Now, with soi-disant “Episode 1”, we learn that “Darth” is just a title. Hence, Obi-Wan’s statement is now more formal and precise.
By analogy, think of the difference between: “You were wrong, Fred” and “You were wrong, Mr Mayor.” The one has a first-name basis and is friendly and caring. The other is a formal declaration. See what I mean?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/17 "2004-07-03T02:09:31Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#):
>
> By analogy, think of the difference between: “You were wrong, Fred” and “You were wrong, Mr Mayor.” The one has a first-name basis and is friendly and caring. The other is a formal declaration. See what I mean?
How much you want to bet that in the next batch of Special Editions, they’ll redub the line to “You’re wrong, Anni”?
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### Author:  [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotj-question/253010/18 "2004-07-03T03:06:33Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> How much you want to bet that in the next batch of Special Editions, they’ll redub the line to “You’re wrong, Anni”?
$10.