# ROTK: Anyone else feel kind of..."Eh"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040 "2003-12-19T20:17:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/41 "2003-12-21T23:49:43Z")
Twice, now, I have been irritated by the stuff left out. Twice, now, I have seen the Extended Editions, and said, “Well, that wasn’t EVERYTHING, but it’s better now.” I’m willing to forgive. The very idea that this insane epic project ever got off the ground at all, much less finished, much less not sucking like a black hole that needs crack money for its pimp, is simply more than I could have asked for, so I ain’t gonna bitch. At least, not until I see the ROTK EE. THEN, maybe I’ll start pricing hit men or whatever… ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/42 "2003-12-22T06:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sturmhauke \* > \*\*Hey look, it’s Eowyn facing off against the Witch King, that’s cool. Awesome, she cuts off the dragon’s head in one swift stroke! No, wait, she doesn’t seem _that_ strong, plus her sword doesn’t even seem long enough, plus it’s not a +5 vorpal. \*\* Actually, I was thinking the same thing, but after seeing it again tonight, I noticed that she nailed it a good 3-4 times before the head came off. And even then, it looks kind of like she only got most of the way through and its own weight ripped off the rest. It’s the camera cuts that make it hard to follow her various blows. ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/43 "2003-12-22T12:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by interface2x \* > \*\*Actually, I was thinking the same thing, but after seeing it again tonight, I noticed that she nailed it a good 3-4 times before the head came off. And even then, it looks kind of like she only got most of the way through and its own weight ripped off the rest. It’s the camera cuts that make it hard to follow her various blows. \*\* But nothing can explain how she toppled the Oliphant by slashing at their legs with that little thing. Speaking of Oliphants, the bit where Legolas climbs the Oliphant to nail the guys in it was the first moment in all the films when I couldn’t accept what was happening because the CGI was inadequate. It was worse than Spiderman. Who’s with me? Eh? Eh? ---
**Author:** ![Chavardz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@Chavardz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chavardz)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/44 "2003-12-22T12:41:23Z")
There are some things that I didn’t like. I missed some of the original dialogues and some of the minor scenes that I have grown to love. I really didn’t like the 9 endings. One or two would have sufficed. I miss the scouring of the shire. I miss mayor Samwise Gamgee. I miss a lot of stupid little things (I do not miss Tom or the songs). All that however can’t compare to seeing all those things you imagined in real life or at least on a really really big screen. I never in my mind’s eye imagined Gandalf the White so magestic. Or the orcs so numbingly different. Or the pain on Frodo and Sam’s faces as they slowly trudge up mount doom. PJ really embarked on an epic journey and delivered what most people never could have. I remember him commenting that he did the movie because no one else had and he felt there should be one. The reason the movies weren’t made is that they are enormous. One story, devided into three volumes or six books. More material than any other movie at the box office (counting all three as one). A brilliant but gigantic cast. Scenery that I didn’t know actually existed. Towns that were built, creatures that were created. It really is amazing, and I love it as it is. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/45 "2003-12-22T13:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eternal \* > \*\*But nothing can explain how she toppled the Oliphant by slashing at their legs with that little thing. > \*\* Yes, it can—she sliced through the beast’s hamstrings. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/46 "2003-12-22T13:16:41Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Chavardz \* \*\*There are some things that I didn’t like. I missed some of the original dialogues and some of the minor scenes that I have grown to love. I really didn’t like the 9 endings. One or two would have sufficed. I miss the scouring of the shire. I miss mayor Samwise Gamgee. I miss a lot of stupid little things (I do not miss Tom or the songs). \*\* I sense a contradiction here: you say you didn’t like the 9 endings…and then you suggest a couple more! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/47 "2003-12-22T15:25:59Z")
I’ll second the Uber-Elf issue. Hell, a handful of elves and Bang! no more Oliphant problems. ---
**Author:** ![beajerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@beajerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beajerry)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/48 "2003-12-22T16:21:30Z")
I got the ‘epic’ feel especially when the City of the Dead awakened and then again at the Black Gates and the fall of Sauron (which was done excellently except for the comically ‘frantic’ eye movements as he fell). The only complaint about the movie was that Strider’s becoming a king was not as fleshed out as it should have been. There should have been more of a reaction from the race of men like “Yes! The King has Returned! Rock-on!” He just kind of stepped up and had the crown put on and the people were like “Yeah, ok.” There was no “Oh Wow! He’s really the King?” or anything like that. The Arwen story was shoe-horned in there pretty tight. The EE version will hopefully open that up better, too. I loved the Crack of Doom scene, it was just how I had pictured it. The only distraction to me was when Gollum was on Frodo’s invisible back. It looked silly and threw me out of my belief of the reality of the CGI character. ---
**Author:** ![shelbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@shelbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shelbo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/49 "2003-12-22T17:20:15Z")
My issue is with Sam and Frodo. It’s been a while since I’ve read the books, but I had the distinct impression that Sam was more of a gruff stoic (in the movie see the battle with Shelob). Turning him into a weepy romantic just seemed very wrong (in the movie see almost every other scene). And Frodo – my god, one more heartfelt gaze into Sam’s eyes while breathlessly saying tender words of appreciation and I was out of there. Basically, what **dangerosa** said in an earlier spoiler post – it was a movie for pervy hobbit fanciers. For me, give me more of Gandalf in the streets of Minas Tirith, swinging a sword in one hand and a staff in the other. (If nothing else, this movie should put to rest all of the “who would win, Gandalf or Dumbledore” questions!) Still, even with all the soft lit hobbit eyelash batting, it was a great movie. ---
**Author:** ![RenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RenMan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/50 "2003-12-22T19:27:12Z")
On the whole, I liked it. _That_ aside, my chief complaint is with the screenplay, and the changes to the characters. I like to think that the following complaints are purely from a literary and plot analysis standpoint. If any Dopers disagree, and think that I’m being a curmudgeonly purist, I will consider your opinion with respect. Anyway, Peter Jackson and his co-writers delight in weakening the dignity and resolve of many major characters. Let’s run down the list first, and then I will try to elaborate on why these changes gall me in particular. > [@](#): > > **Book Elrond:** Wise and serene. Ready to help in any way he can. Does not hesitate to re-forge Narsil. > > **Movie Elrond:** Wise, but bitter and defeatist. “Men are weak!”, “Our list of allies grows THIN!”. Needs a pep-talk from Gandalf. Only reforges the sword late in the third movie, and only because he loves his daughter. > [@](#): > > **Book Arwen:** Steadfast and loyal to Aragorn. She’s made her choice; she sticks to it. > > **Movie Arwen:** Allows herself to be persuaded to leave for the Grey Havens. Only returns when she sees a vision of her future son. As if that possibility had never occurred to her. Would have left in the middle of the night without telling Aragorn. > [@](#): > > **Book Aragorn:** Has spent most of his life preparing for the great struggle against Sauron. As a young man, fought under a disguised identity with the armies of Rohan and Gondor. Assisted Gandalf in his quests (including the hunt for Gollum) all over the known world. Fully ready to be king. > > **Movie Aragorn:** “Turned from the path” of kingship. Wandering in self-imposed exile from his life’s purpose. Even by the third movie, he simply hasn’t decided whether he really really REALLY wants to fight Sauron and be king. Looks like he finally decides at Dunharrow, when Elrond brings him Anduril. > > (Although, in all other ways he’s perfect: even in his arrogance against King Theoden in Edoras, which recalls his book scene at the doors of Meduseld, when he challenges Theoden’s authority to have him remove his Sword that was Broken.) > [@](#): > > **Book Eomer:** Faithful lord and captain of Rohan. Briefly imprisoned thanks to Wormtongue, but soon free and fighting against Saruman. > > **Movie Eomer:** Due to a (not unskillful) plot change, exiled thanks to Wormtongue. However, once exiled, Eomer, knowing of the dire threat against Rohan, decides that the best move is to simply run away with all his riders, riding far to the north and seemingly doing nothing until Gandalf comes to get him, rather than (Captain Kirk-style) disobeying orders and riding out against the enemy himself. > [@](#): > > **Book Theoden:** Once he’s rescued from Wormtongue’s influence by Gandalf, there is no doubt in his mind what he must do: join the war already in progress against Saruman. > > **Movie Theoden:** In the movie the battle vs. Saruman hasn’t really started yet when Theoden is rescued, so Theoden actually gets to choose his nation’s foreign policy direction. Incredibly, despite the facts that bands of Dunlendings are attacking his villages, and that Wormtongue and Saruman have been poisoning his mind, he _STILL_ doesn’t want to fight. What a Neville Chamberlain. > > In the third movie, he proves himself to be petty as well, wondering why he should help Gondor when Gondor didn’t help him, when he (and the writers) should have known that: > > 1. There’s no way Gondor could have helped; they were too far away to get there in time. > 2. Theoden, in the Two Towers movie, turned down Aragorn’s advice to even _send riders_ to Gondor, asking for aid. > [@](#): > > **Book Faramir:** Noble, wise like one of the ancient Dunedain before the fall, true-hearted, and insightful into the hearts of men. Handles himself wonderfully when meeting Frodo and Sam, with skillful interrogation, followed by an honorable choice not to interfere with Frodo’s quest that shows his strength of character. (You can tell I really loved that chapter in the Two Towers.) > > **Movie Faramir:** This was my least favorite change from book to movie. Faramir is no better than his brother, except at the end. He carries Frodo and Sam along to the pointless and plot-hole-forming scene that is Osgiliath. (Aside: what plot hole? As in, if the Nazgul sees Frodo and the Ring, doesn’t that change everything?? I suppose you could argue that Sauron thinks the Ring is headed to Gondor and thus all the more reason to start the war, but still…) > [@](#): > > **Book Treebeard:** Knows all about the destruction of his forest. All it takes is an honest conversation with two hobbits for him to fully realize how far things have gone. Once he’s in action, there’s no stopping him, or his fellow Ents. > > **Movie Treebeard:** Another Neville Chamberlain, like Theoden. Knows in a vague way that Orcs come to destroy but has to be tricked into realizing just how bad it’s gotten. > [@](#): > > **Book Denethor:** A very tragic character. A noble, proud (if arrogant) leader who has been tragically and secretly deceived by Sauron into losing his hope. An awesome, intelligent presence, and a story worthy of pity. > > **Movie Denethor:** Of all character changes, this was the _worst_! An ass. A buffoon. A ridiculously bad general. A messy eater. A terrified general who has to be beaten with a stick before he surrenders the whole city prematurely. And not even a Palantir and a subplot of Sauron’s deception to excuse his bad behavior. He is an unredeemable swine. With that aside, I ask myself: **So why these changes?** My theory is that the writers were buying into a trusted literary guideline that **the story is more interesting if characters have a _character arc_** , meaning they have to overcome some internal obstacle, whether it’s conquering a fear, or deciding to do the right thing in the end. My problems with Peter Jackson’s slavish overuse of this device are: 1. Just because it’s Hollywood fashion to use this device, doesn’t necessarily make it a good idea for all occasions, nor should you try to use this device for **every character in your epic**. 2. Most of the characters already did have obstacles to overcome, and did so neatly. For example, Faramir faced his test of quality right there in the cave when he learned that his prisoners carried the One Ring. Why elongate his test (and darken his character) to include a badly put-together and semi-incoherent scene in Osgiliath? In fact, the new character arcs took screen time away from ones that were already there, and had to be cut (such as Eowyn’s spiritual recovery - “I no longer desire death” in the Houses of Healing). Because of facts like this, I don’t buy the explanation that characters had to be changed to cut down the length of the story. It looks like Peter Jackson just didn’t trust the integrity and wonder of the original story and characters. He played the standard Hollywood trick of simplifying and exaggerating character traits. (eg Denethor: he prefers one son over the other? He tries to burn the other son? Why he’s a BAD MAN!! Let’s make him a REALLY BAD MAN! Let’s make him a weak-hearted, weak-minded semi-villain!) Ahem. I’m ranting. Sorry. Truthfully, I really enjoyed the film. I just don’t like when screenwriters don’t trust their source, their medium, nor their audience, and have to insert modern formulas into the plots. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/51 "2003-12-22T20:02:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skammer \* > \*\*I keep seeing people complaining that Frodo “pushed” Gollum off the ledge. What I saw was the two of them struggling and falling, with Frodo managing to catch himself. I don’t think Frodo pushed Gollum intentionally. I might have to see it again. > \*\* Frodo definitely pushed him. But here’s the deal - so? Why is that a departure from the book? Fine, in the book, and in that solitary scene, Gollum falls in. But people are very much forgetting Gollum’s sneak attack directly before they enter the Crack. Frodo says that if Gollum ever touches the Ring again, Gollum is commanded to take his own life. Seems like PJ combined two related parts of the book into one concise part in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![RitzyRae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@RitzyRae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitzyRae)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/52 "2003-12-22T20:43:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shelbo \* > \*\*Still, even with all the soft lit hobbit eyelash batting, it was a great movie. \*\* I definately agree! I need a break before I here Frodo say, “OH SAM!” again with that voice and those eyes. Was the kiss on the forehead too long for anyone else? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/53 "2003-12-22T22:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Munch \* > \*\*Frodo definitely pushed him. > \*\* I never saw a push. I saw a struggle for the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/54 "2003-12-22T23:04:45Z")
The movie was not “Eh” for me but it was inconsistent. ALrge protion of it was excellent, but then parts of it were “Eh” or even worse. First of all, way too much of the wide, high, panaoramic, wide-angle shots that must pound us over the head of how grand everything is. Second, the ending, but there were about five endings, and it seems that each one finished with a close-up of Frodo, except the last with just Samwise…Frodo at the coronation…Frodo in the bar…Frodo at the wedding…Frodo on the boat. Also, the movie (I cannot speak of the books, where it is quite likely better explaine) there is too many cases of _Deuxs Ex Machina_ or similar…the Eagles? Huh? Where did they come from?..the army of the dead? I got that there was a backstory, but it still seemed extremely convenient, like their only purpose was to be around to fight this last battle… Samwise showing up just in the nick of time to save Frodo…time and time again…from Orrcs, from Smeagol, etc… Also, why couldn’t they re-forge the sword of the King earlier, did I miss something from one of the earlier movies (very likely)? ---
**Author:** ![Engywook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Engywook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engywook)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/55 "2003-12-22T23:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RenMan \* > \*\*On the whole, I liked it. > > _That_ aside, my chief complaint is with the screenplay, and the changes to the characters. I like to think that the following complaints are purely from a literary and plot analysis standpoint. If any Dopers disagree, and think that I’m being a curmudgeonly purist, I will consider your opinion with respect. \*\* I don’t think you’re excessively purist… I agree with many of your points, and only a few detracted from my enjoyment of the three (one?) LOTR films: ## quote: Book Elrond: Wise and serene. Movie Elrond: Wise, but bitter and defeatist. * * * Elrond’s attitude in the film, to me, is consistent with Galadriel’s compelling remark from the book about “the long defeat.” ## The Elrond in the book is, IMHO, less interesting - a font of wisdom, but not as much a character. The conflicts with Arwen, and the subtextual anger with Aragorn, are alluded to in the book and the appendices, but you don’t really get to _see_ it. And, I think, Elrond’s “bitterness” always advances the story. quote: Book Arwen: Steadfast and loyal to Aragorn. She’s made her choice; she sticks to it. Movie Arwen: Allows herself to be persuaded to leave for the Grey Havens… would have left in the middle of the night without telling Aragorn. * * * “Bitter was (Elrond and Arwen’s) parting” was all it said in the book, and that to me wasn’t enough. ## It’s a plausible change. Sometimes it’s better not to say goodbye, especially since Aragorn knew she had to make this choice and couldn’t wait for the war to end to make up her mind. And it’s much more believable for Arwen’s conflict to be illustrated than for her to abandon her father. quote: (Aragorn vs. Aragorn) (Although, in all other ways he’s perfect: even in his arrogance against King Theoden in Edoras, which recalls his book scene at the doors of Meduseld, when he challenges Theoden’s authority to have him remove his Sword that was Broken.) * * * There are surely other ways to represent Aragorn’s maturing to kingship (at the age of 87!)… but I for one thought PJ made a good choice here. ## quote: Movie Eomer: Due to a (not unskillful) plot change, exiled thanks to Wormtongue. However, once exiled, Eomer, knowing of the dire threat against Rohan, decides that the best move is to simply run away with all his riders * * * I agree with you here. TTT, IMHO, had a good number of bad decisions. It was a tough movie to make, and on the director’s commentary there were a number of places where they all admitted they might have done better with a few things. ## quote: Movie Theoden: In the third movie, he proves himself to be petty as well, wondering why he should help Gondor when Gondor didn’t help him, when he (and the writers) should have known that: 1. There’s no way Gondor could have helped; they were too far away to get there in time. 2. Theoden, in the Two Towers movie, turned down Aragorn’s advice to even send riders to Gondor, asking for aid. * * * ## I do hope they cut that line in the EE, because it’s un-necessary and it’s also remembered later when Theoden does indeed ride to Gondor. Even in the book, though, Theoden’s line about “now being worthy to lay beside my fathers without shame” puzzled me. He was a nice guy and all, and I’m also a great admirer of Bernard Hill, but I never saw Theoden as being exactly heroic. quote: Movie Faramir: This was my least favorite change from book to movie. Faramir is no better than his brother, except at the end. He carries Frodo and Sam along to the pointless and plot-hole-forming scene that is Osgiliath. (Aside: what plot hole? As in, if the Nazgul sees Frodo and the Ring, doesn’t that change everything?? I suppose you could argue that Sauron thinks the Ring is headed to Gondor and thus all the more reason to start the war, but still…) * * * The portrayal of Faramir in TTT was, I think, the only change that _really_ bothered me. Again, the TTT EE commentary explains, plausibly, why they couldn’t just use the Faramir from the book - the ring would have been weakened. But one of the writers admitted that weakening Faramir might not have been the best answer. OTOH, I think that Faramir of ROTK was done very well. Almost (I beg your pardon) well-done, too. ## quote: Movie Treebeard: Another Neville Chamberlain, like Theoden. Knows in a vague way that Orcs come to destroy but has to be tricked into realizing just how bad it’s gotten. * * * ## That was another really bad choice. I think this one might fit with what you say below about this need to have a dramatic arc for every character. Treebeard being moved to anger was so much more effective in the book… he didn’t even have to see the devastation to get put over the top. PJ didn’t exactly _ruin_ Fangorn, but he did make him a bit tame. quote: Movie Denethor: Of all character changes, this was the worst! An ass. A buffoon. A ridiculously bad general. A messy eater. A terrified general who has to be beaten with a stick before he surrenders the whole city prematurely. And not even a Palantir and a subplot of Sauron’s deception to excuse his bad behavior. He is an unredeemable swine. * * * My hunch is that you’ll feel more satisfied with this when the EE DVD comes out next year. But even without… Denethor’s character **in the movie** is small but effective. I’m not sure if it’s necessary for him to play a bigger, or more morally complex part. On the whole, I think the first and third films realized the characters beautifully, and most of the changes from the book were changes that helped in making a good movie that was generally faithful to Tolkien’s work. TTT is less satisfying to me, because of the exact character changes that you talk about. I can’t even tell whether TTT’s even good because it suffers in comparison with the book. But I can watch the other two films without thinking that much about the book. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/56 "2003-12-22T23:24:51Z")
Gangster, the sword WAS reforged earlier in the books. In the books it was reforged in Rivendell before they even set out on their quest for Mordor. And in the books, Aragorn never had any doubts about rising to the challenge and becoming the king. He was prepared for that from the very beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Kantalooppi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@Kantalooppi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kantalooppi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/57 "2003-12-22T23:51:01Z")
I have to agree that having Gollum fall because of a struggle with Frodo is better than “Gollum does a silly dance and slips”. That would have been far, far too, well, Anakin-whee to work in the movie. The thing I was most excepting to see was how they’d handle that scene, and I have to say it was generally good, except Gollum’s final, triumphant “Preeecioouus!” was omitted and the ring’s actual melting was a bit hokily done. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/58 "2003-12-23T00:18:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrazyCatLady \* > \*\*Well, to be fair, nobody was exactly guarding Gandalf, or even paying the least bit of attention to him near as I could tell, and he had some help getting out. Sauruman, by contrast, has no assistance and is being guarded by the Ents. \*\* We don’t see or hear anything about any attempts to escape, however meager. All we get is Gandalf saying that Saruman’s power is spent, which kind of cheapens the scene. All it needed was 10 seconds of Saruman looking miserable, or tired, or raging uselessly at the Ents, or something. \*\* > [@](#): > > The elves are very sensitive to evil, and as the powers of darkness grow stronger, [Arwen] grows weaker. It’s a mystic thing, like the light in that necklace she gave Aragorn.\*\* Tell me where in the movies this is explained. Also tell me why the elves were not so affected when they fought Sauron the first time, and why the elves who were given the rings were not corrupted like the human kings who became the Nazgul. \*\* > [@](#): > > Uh, because [Faramir]'s trying to finally win his father’s love and approval? Because his brother is dead, and his father wishes it had been him, so he sees nothing left to live _for_? Because he’s sworn to do his lord’s bidding, and his honor is more important to him than his life? \*\* Is it more honorable to uselessly fling good knights at a foe that vastly outnumbers you, in order to gain territory of dubious strategic value at the moment, and neglecting the defense of the capital city which is about to besieged, because you hope to gain the favor of your father whose sanity slips more and more and who has never expressed anything but derision to you? Or is it more honorable to break your vows of service to serve the greater good, or at least to fight in a more intelligent manner? \*\* > [@](#): > > I never got the feeling the whole [of Minas Tirith] was a citadel, although like any other city it had its battlements. And the shots weren’t toppling the whole thing, just the upper portion of that particular tower. \*\* There was a very clear shot of a tower fully collapsing from one hit. It wasn’t one of the larger towers, perhaps, but still. \*\* > [@](#): > > [Regarding Eowyn vs. the Witch King] Makes just as much sense as “no man of woman born” if you ask me. I never took the time to measure her sword against the nazgul’s neck, but I have no problem with her being stronger than she looks, or with the rush of adrenalin boosting that strength. That, and it really looked to me like it just caught her a glancing blow.\*\* I didn’t like the “no man of woman born” bit either. My point is the scene could have been done a little better. \*\* > [@](#): > > Well, nobody knew that [Aragorn] was going to gather [the army of the dead], for one thing, and nobody knew for sure that they would agree to fight for him. Why _wouldn’t_ they take the regular troops? Can you just see the Rohirrim explaining why they didn’t answer Gondor’s call for aid? “Um, well, you see, Aragorn said he’d take care of it, and it’s such a long ride, and how were we to know he’d fail in his mission?”\*\* See Gangster Octopus’s post about _deus ex machina_. I would have also preferred if the army of the dead didn’t completely dominate the battle like they did. \*\* > [@](#): > > When he thought Frodo was dead, that’s exactly what he’s willing to try to do. But since carrying the Ring is Frodo’s mission, and Sam’s been told repeatedly that it would destroy him, he’s not going to screw around with that. Besides, is he supposed to just leave Frodo lying there half-dead and unprotected in the heart of Mordor? \*\* We see that Frodo is pretty jacked up by the Ring. Frodo was ultimately corrupted, but he had been carrying it nearly continuously for the entire journey from the Shire. I don’t see how Sam could fare so badly for a few minutes. OK, so he wouldn’t leave his friend laying around, but he still could have taken the Ring and tossed it in. \*\* > [@](#): > > Because, as he said, some wounds just can’t be healed. Bearing the Ring for so long has changed him forever, and not in a good way. He can never go back to who and what he was before Bilbo gave him the Ring. Sam, Merry, and Pippin all go back and pick up their old lives and selves, but Frodo can’t. He’ll never be home in the Shire the way the other three are, and so he left. \*\* The scene where the 4 of them are sitting at the tavern staring at each other and obviously not fitting in was a good start at explaining Frodo’s departure. Yet the other 3 were able to start living in the Shire again. I know Frodo’s experience was more horrific, but until he ditches the others there’s no indication that he’s not beginning to adjust to normal life. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/59 "2003-12-23T01:41:17Z")
A few responses for **sturmhauke** : Nearly everything you question is answered in the books, and raises questions in the movie because of omitted material. The scene where Gandalf breaks Saruman’s staff and casts him from the order of wizards was omitted from TTT because of something about the attention span of audiences after the climax of a movie, or some such balderdash. Then it wasn’t put in the beginning of ROTK because the new storylines needed to get going. It may be in the ROTK EE, I guess. In addition, Treebeard (in the book) expresses his delight at being able to tell Saruman just what he thinks of treekillers. At length. And ents are very, very, very longwinded. The Arwen wasting away thing was invented hokiness on the part of PJ. Didn’t make any sense to me either, and I’ve read the books a couple dozen times at least. Faramir’s actions don’t strike me as being as far out of line as they do you, apparently. Think of the Charge of the Light Brigade, or the defense of the Alamo, or various other military ventures in the face of insurmountable odds. These are more often celebrated than not. However, the book Denethor isn’t such a fool as to throw men away. Faramir’s return to the city precedes the taking of the river crossing at Osgiliath. He is sent back to take command of the defense there, not to attempt to retake a well-defended bridgehead. He commands the defense masterfully, bringing the bulk of his troops back to Minas Tirith in an orderly retreat after the crossing is forced, but is felled by an arrow within sight of the gates whilst holding together a tiny rearguard. His comatose body is rescued by Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, who leads a cavalry sortie to cover the retreat. Sadly, if understandably, much of the tactical complexity in the battle is lost in the movie version. There has been much comment, most of it on the mark, imho, on the portrayal of Denethor. Not the strongest point of the movie, to say the least. I thought the stonework was presented as scandalously fragile myself. Stone walls do succumb to catapults, but if they’re built well it takes a while. And we’re told in the book that the stonework is indeed high quality. According to prophecy, the Witch King _would not_ be slain by a man. Not could not. Would not. That he chose to interpret this as could not was his own arrogance.\* I never pictured the fell beasts as being so gigantic, so Eowyn lopping off the critter’s head never seemed unreasonable, but I would agree that the movie scene stretched the bounds of believability. Nonetheless, it’s very close to the book version, except for leaving out some choice bits of dialogue on Eowyn’s part. The book version of the dead army didn’t fight on Pelannor Fields. They defeated the Corsairs of Umbar (the pirates in the black ships) who had been marauding in the southern part of Gondor. Aragorn then released them, manned the ships with the troops that had been held back in the south to defend against the Corsairs, and sailed up the river, hitting the bad guys on the flank at the height of the battle. Moreover, the entire thing with the dead happens offstage - we only learn of what happened after the fact, as Gimli relates the story to Merry and Pippin after the battle. So it doesn’t feel at all deus ex machina. (The eagles do, but Tolkien had written himself into a corner on that one. He could have offed his heroes, I guess, which arguably might have made the story more believable, but then we’d have missed out on the Gaffer Gamgee dressing Frodo down for Sam’s wearing chainmail on their return. :D) I’d agree that the dead in the movie seem a tad overwhelming, though the line in the book is something like “None could stand before them”, so they’re not inaccurate. However, the way the battles were conflated exaggerated things. I thought it didn’t work too badly, all things considered, but again, not the strongest point of the movie. Frodo’s wound that won’t heal is another indication that he won’t stay in the Shire. In addition, his ordeal has left him less able to be content with things. Remember, he carried an object of immense power for a long time, and it left an indelible mark on him. Life just isn’t the same afterwards. This could have been made more clear, but the end of the movie was already too long to judge by the complaints of the people sitting next to me. \*There’s an outside chance I’m misremembering this prophecy, but I’m pretty sure that’s how it goes. I’ll look it up in a minute. ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040/60 "2003-12-23T08:22:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RikWriter \* > \*\*Yes, it can—she sliced through the beast’s hamstrings. \*\* It would take a team of lumberjacks a week to penetrate an Oliphant’s skin. pssht. Apologists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotk-anyone-else-feel-kind-of-eh/220040.md?page=4)