# Rotsa ruck **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043 "2013-05-22T17:36:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/21 "2013-05-23T15:33:48Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It’s fascinating to me that for Japanese people, L and R are pretty much indistinguishable. > > For me, they live in entirely different categories - one’s yin, the other one’s yang. L is a liquid and lush dollop, R is raspy, scratchy and dry. L is blue. R is a rust color. Phonetically, L and R are made using very similar throat/mouth movements. Japanese uses a midpoint sound only, whereas English (IIRC, most languages) differentiate them into the extremes. You’re right that they are two very different sounds; the Japanese version is a blend. They absolutely can differentiate them, however. It just takes some practice because they’re not used to doing it, and have to work at saying and listening to the distinction. **njtt** ’s comment is half-nonsense. Nobody “loses” the ability to hear lingual formations. We _gain_ the ability to hone in on the formations most useful in our native language. Japanese haven’t developed this ability. English speakers are going to have a hard time differentiating between declension in Mandarin for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/22 "2013-05-23T16:45:59Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I disagree. Japanese people cannot _hear_ any difference between L and R. Because their language does not use this phonetic distinction, they lose the ability to hear it in infancy. However, the most common consequence, when the Japanese try to speak English, is that they pronounce R as L. I once heard a Japanese lecturer (whose English was, in nearly all other respects, excellent, and scarcely even accented) tell his audience that if they wanted to emulate Japan’s economic success (this was back in the '60s), Europeans ought to eat more lice (it was meant as a joke, but fell completely flat due to the mispronunciation). He distinctly said “lice”. However, the confusion does sometimes also go in the other direction too, particularly with the written word, as with this CD by [Eric Crapton](http://www.engrish.com/2002/02/eric-crapton/). > > “Rotsa ruck” is probably not something a Japanese person would say - it is just English speakers getting the Japanese confusion backward. A Japanese might, however, say “Lound the lugged locks the lagged lascal lan”. > > I am not persuaded that the Chinese mix up R and L at all. The notion that they do probably arises from the inability of many westerners to tell the Chinese from the Japanese. My assumption stems from the fact that there are plenty of L names when romanized from Chinese (LING, LEE, etc) and R names in Japanese (Reika, Reiko, Reimi, etc) There is not, as far as I know, the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/23 "2013-05-23T17:04:31Z")
Thai also. The Thai language has both the L and the R sounds. But some confuse the two, especially when speaking another language. I knew one girl who I swear could not say “fried rice.” It always came out “flied lice.” (We kidded her about being careful not to order that if she ever went to the US, heh :D.) As well, the Thai noodle dish that most people call _rat na_ is often rendered _lat na_ even using Thai letters. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/24 "2013-05-23T17:25:00Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > It always came out “flied lice.”… > > As well, the Thai noodle dish that most people call _rat na_ is often rendered _lat na_ even using Thai letters. There was a place I where I used to have lunch, where the woman would ask if I wanted fried rice. It came out, ‘Fly liiiiiiieeee…?’ I’ve seen several variations in the spelling of the Thai noodles at different Thai restaurants. ‘Larb Nar’ seems to be the most common. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/25 "2013-05-23T18:05:25Z")
I can’t supply any names or dates, but the following may not be at all anecdotal: Japanese politician to American politician: “Congraturations on your erection.” American politician to Japanese politician: “Thank you. When are the next Japanese elections scheduled?” Japanese politician to American politician: “That is determined by the Japanese Prime Minister- Japanese Prime Minister can have erections any time he wants.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/26 "2013-05-23T18:57:59Z")
I would hope so or else what’s the use of being the Prime Minister? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/27 "2013-05-23T20:19:45Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Rotsa ruck, Phil. > > It turned into a catch phrase in the '50s when Phil Ford and Mimi Hines appeared on Sullivan, more than once. I remember seeing them on Sullivan. Hines had some serious buck teeth, which she used to create a caricature of an Asian woman. God, I’m old. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/28 "2013-05-23T20:58:46Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > My assumption stems from the fact that there are plenty of L names when romanized from Chinese (LING, LEE, etc) > and R names in Japanese (Reika, Reiko, Reimi, etc) > > There is not, as far as I know, the reverse. I wouldn’t know Chinese (whatever that means) if I heard it, but I did study Japanese for a couple years and you’re right about “L” not being a common vocalization of theirs. In the “R” I always heard a simultaneous “LDR” with the L being very subtle. But that Christmas Story scene always bugs me, too for the same reason. There’s really nobody in real life who gives a damn about it though, so you just have to suffer in silence and laugh at the funny Orientals. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/29 "2013-05-23T21:35:48Z")
My former Japanese teacher referred to the sound as a “flap R”: making an R sound by flapping the tongue off the roof of the mouth, much like you would to make an L sound. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/30 "2013-05-24T14:07:38Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > There was a place I where I used to have lunch, where the woman would ask if I wanted fried rice. It came out, ‘Fly liiiiiiieeee…?’ > > I’ve seen several variations in the spelling of the Thai noodles at different Thai restaurants. ‘Larb Nar’ seems to be the most common. Thai does not have the S sound at the end of syllables, so a lot of Thais simply omit it like that. But “larb nar”? That’s a new one on me. That almost sounds like _lap_, commonly spelled _larb_. That’s not a noodle dish though, but a spicy meat dish from the Northeast. (The correct pronunciation of the noodle dish regardless of spelling is “rat na,” both A’s the A in “father,” the first one of short duration, the second one a bit more drawn out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/31 "2013-05-24T14:54:13Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > My assumption stems from the fact that there are plenty of L names when romanized from Chinese (LING, LEE, etc) > and R names in Japanese (Reika, Reiko, Reimi, etc) > > There is not, as far as I know, the reverse. Don’t go by the spelling. The “r” in Japanese, as already noted, is not an English “r”, but something between the "l’ and “r” sound. But to American ears, it may sounds closer to “r”. ---
**Author:** ![rasputin2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@rasputin2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rasputin2)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/32 "2014-03-23T16:57:59Z")
I also deeply suspect “rotsa ruck” originated with WWII GI’s stationed in Asia. My father used to use it: He picked it up on his college campus in the early 1960’s. Note that it is a backhanded rejoinder: It is a sarcastic way of saying: “I don’t believe you will ever be successful at doing that” or: “That is a near-impossible task you are proposing.” ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/33 "2014-03-23T20:50:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Don’t go by the spelling. The “r” in Japanese, as already noted, is not an English “r”, but something between the "l’ and “r” sound. But to American ears, it may sounds closer to “r”. It’s called the alveolar tap/flap. Many accents in English have it phonetically, but not phonemically. “Hello muddah/hello faddah” it actually fairly close. The best example I can give (that obviously varies by accent) is the words “Katy” or “Kitty”, in a lot of accents, including mine the “t” in both of those words is an alveolvar tap/flap. ---
**Author:** ![Toledo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@Toledo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toledo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/34 "2014-03-24T01:47:26Z")
A Japanese friend of mine pointed out that some Japanese have difficulty with “V” and “B” sounds, especially when at the beginning of a word, where we tend to elide into it from the previous word. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/35 "2014-03-24T18:17:05Z")
> [@Mavis\_Topholese](#): > > Is is possible that “Rotsa Ruck” was used as an identifying shibboleth during the war, in much the same way American soldiers would use “Lollapalooza” as a password, knowing the Japanese couldn’t pronounce it correctly? The WWII Pacific stories I recall reading mentioned “Lollipop” as a GI password. There was a god-awful 50’s movie where Shirley MacLaine pretended to be a geisha, and did the same R’s-as-L’s backwards mixup. Velly stupid. Whereas, I was in Xian (the central area of China, whre the terracotta army is), the driver was listening to the radio during the long traffic jam; I couldn’t understand a word the comedian was saying on the radio, but every word seemed to end in “ur, ur, ur…” (Much like a Canadian fellow I knew with a speech imepdiment). It seemed very similar in Beijing. So I assume (a) regional accents vary quite a bit and (b) most of our assumption of bad Chinese accents comes from the earlier wave of immigrants mostly from the Hong Kong / Cantonese area? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/36 "2014-03-24T19:08:07Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > “Rotsa ruck” is probably not something a Japanese person would say - it is just English speakers getting the Japanese confusion backward. A Japanese might, however, say “Lound the lugged locks the lagged lascal lan”. I think you’re getting it backwards. “Lear” is part of my name, and for a while I worked as a liaison between American and Japanese engineers. The closest they could come to pronouncing that was “riru” but they usually simplified it to “ri”. The Japanese have a letter ‘r’ and when they pronounce it (as in the name Mariko) it sounds much more like an ‘r’ than an ‘l’. I had a friend named Brill who laughed at the trouble Japanese had with her name, given that they can’t pronounce either B or L. “Pariru” was about the closest they came. She was living with a Japanese family (exchange student or something like that) and to teach them to sound a B, she pinched her lips with her fingers, began to vocalize as her cheeks filled with air, and then let go somewhat explosively, which gave them lots and lots of fun. I’m sure it didn’t hurt that she was an exotically beautiful young woman. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/37 "2014-03-25T00:54:59Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I disagree. Japanese people cannot _hear_ any difference between L and R. Because their language does not use this phonetic distinction, they lose the ability to hear it in infancy. However, the most common consequence, when the Japanese try to speak English, is that they pronounce R as L. I’ve heard just as much transposition of L to R as the other way around. The anecdotal explanation is that they learn to pronounce the R sound just fine, but they can’t hear the difference, so they use them in a pattern that looks pretty much random (though there’s probably a real pattern that nobody has bothered to figure out). ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/38 "2014-03-25T02:01:38Z")
No idea on the origin, but it was one of my dad’s favorite slightly snarky phrases. He was born in 1920 & served in WWII in the New Guinea region, if that’s of any use. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/39 "2014-03-25T02:38:21Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am not persuaded that the Chinese mix up R and L at all. The notion that they do probably arises from the inability of many westerners to tell the Chinese from the Japanese. I’m straining my memory here, but I recall my native-Mandarin-speaking college girlfriend saying that L and R do get mixed up a lot because the phonemes don’t map cleanly between English and Mandarin. Unlike Japanese where it’s almost universally L pronounced as R, the mispronunciation for Mandarin speakers is a bit more random and contextual. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043/40 "2014-03-25T03:14:10Z")
I think it is far more common for Chinese to confuse L and N, for many topolects, they are pretty much interchangable. For example, in Cantonese, Hello can be pronounced both Lei ho and Nei ho [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rotsa-ruck/659043.md?page=1)