# Routine traffic stop, officer shot 4 times in the head, "self defense" (RO) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499 "2008-07-14T21:08:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/21 "2008-07-14T22:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What the fuck is this supposed to mean. [/QUOTE] It means that’s a lot of bullshit. I don’t see a blame-the-victim vibe around here concerning police shootings; if anything, the exact opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/22 "2008-07-14T23:00:32Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] It means that’s a lot of bullshit. I don’t see a blame-the-victim vibe around here concerning police shootings; if anything, the exact opposite. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say “around here.” I was talking about the rhetoric of the cops themselves (not to mention the media). ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/23 "2008-07-14T23:03:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I didn’t say “around here.” I was talking about the rhetoric of the cops themselves (not to mention the media). [/QUOTE] You weren’t at all clear on that point. The “blame the victim vibe” was brought up by **buttonjockey308** , who said he was getting it from this thread, not from the police. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/24 "2008-07-14T23:06:17Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Either of you (or anyone else) want to paint a plausible scenario how it could’ve _been_ a case of self-defense? [/quote] No, I don’t want to, and I don’t need to. Reality has this way of suprising me sometimes. Things I thought were implausible often turn out to actually be the case. For this reason, I’ve learned to withhold judgment when I don’t have much data. And in this case, I have almost no data. With that said, it happens I _can_ think of something. It was inspired by your own suggestion that the police officer threatened to sic the dog if the guy didn’t comply. My presentation of a possible scenario is as follows: The police officer said he was _going_ to sic the dog on the guy in order to kill him, once he had the cuffs on him. The guy (who some here are theorizing may have been mentally not all there) believed him, and panicked, and shot the police officer. No, I don’t think it’s _likely_ in _general_ that police officers would say things like this. But this is an extraordinary case, not an ordinary one. And I think it’s _possible_ that _sometimes_ police officers say things like this. I don’t think this is what happened. That’s because I don’t claim to have even the first clue what happened. But you asked for a scenario that would vindicate the guy’s claims, that’s also compatible with the (paucity of) data we have about the incident. And I’ve presented one. Also, to be clear, I don’t claim such a scenario would legally justify the shooting. I don’t _know_ about that kind of thing, so I withhold judgment. Instead, I’m just claiming that such a scenario would be compatible with the guy’s claim that he was shooting “in self defense”. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/25 "2008-07-14T23:08:49Z")
Here’s the text that isn’t showing up in my above post for some reason: [QUOTE=Frylock] [QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Either of you (or anyone else) want to paint a plausible scenario how it could’ve _been_ a case of self-defense? > [@](#): > > No, I don’t want to, and I don’t need to. Reality has this way of suprising me sometimes. Things I thought were implausible often turn out to actually be the case. For this reason, I’ve learned to withhold judgment when I don’t have much data. And in this case, I have almost no data. > > With that said, it happens I _can_ think of something. It was inspired by your own suggestion that the police officer threatened to sic the dog if the guy didn’t comply. My presentation of a possible scenario is as follows: The police officer said he was _going_ to sic the dog on the guy in order to kill him, once he had the cuffs on him. The guy (who some here are theorizing may have been mentally not all there) believed him, and panicked, and shot the police officer. > > No, I don’t think it’s _likely_ in _general_ that police officers would say things like this. But this is an extraordinary case, not an ordinary one. And I think it’s _possible_ that _sometimes_ police officers say things like this. > > I don’t think this is what happened. That’s because I don’t claim to have even the first clue what happened. But you asked for a scenario that would vindicate the guy’s claims, that’s also compatible with the (paucity of) data we have about the incident. And I’ve presented one. > > Also, to be clear, I don’t claim such a scenario would legally justify the shooting. > I don’t _know_ about that kind of thing, so I withhold judgment. Instead, I’m just claiming that such a scenario would be compatible with the guy’s claim that he was shooting “in self defense”. > > -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/26 "2008-07-14T23:14:10Z")
One more try: [QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Either of you (or anyone else) want to paint a plausible scenario how it could’ve _been_ a case of self-defense? [quote] No, I don’t want to, and I don’t need to. Reality has this way of suprising me sometimes. Things I thought were implausible often turn out to actually be the case. For this reason, I’ve learned to withhold judgment when I don’t have much data. And in this case, I have almost no data. With that said, it happens I _can_ think of something. It was inspired by your own suggestion that the police officer threatened to sic the dog if the guy didn’t comply. My presentation of a possible scenario is as follows: The police officer said he was _going_ to sic the dog on the guy in order to kill him, once he had the cuffs on him. The guy (who some here are theorizing may have been mentally not all there) believed him, and panicked, and shot the police officer. No, I don’t think it’s _likely_ in _general_ that police officers would say things like this. But this is an extraordinary case, not an ordinary one. And I think it’s _possible_ that _sometimes_ police officers say things like this. I don’t think this is what happened. That’s because I don’t claim to have even the first clue what happened. But you asked for a scenario that would vindicate the guy’s claims, that’s also compatible with the (paucity of) data we have about the incident. And I’ve presented one. Also, to be clear, I don’t claim such a scenario would legally justify the shooting. I don’t _know_ about that kind of thing, so I withhold judgment. Instead, I’m just claiming that such a scenario would be compatible with the guy’s claim that he was shooting “in self defense”. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/27 "2008-07-14T23:16:43Z")
You have not one, but two unclosed quote tags there. That’s why nothing’s showing up. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/28 "2008-07-14T23:27:15Z")
**Frylock** , I fixed your coding and removed the other two duplicated posts. As **Q.E.D.** pointed out, there’s a bug in the current version of vBulletin where an unclosed quote tag causes a post to show up blank. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/29 "2008-07-14T23:28:12Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/30 "2008-07-14T23:33:55Z")
(Thanks guys. That never happened to me before! -FrL) ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/31 "2008-07-14T23:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Your vibe sensors need tuning. -FrL- [/QUOTE] No they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/32 "2008-07-15T00:49:23Z")
I’m just going to say that if one person is threatening me enough to make me fire in self-defense, I will shoot him until my weapon is empty. (I have previously stated that I am unsure I would make that decision in time for it to be useful… I feel rather sickened by the idea of hurting someone.) But if, for some reason, I feel that my life depends on making someone dead, I see no issue with shooting him four times in the head. ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/33 "2008-07-15T01:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Plus, he’ll be a hero in the joint. That’s if he [doesn’t get killed](http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0608/532058.html) in his cell before trial first. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/34 "2008-07-15T02:11:05Z")
I’m afraid that I can see situations where someone who was in genuine fear for his life would fire four, or more, shots into their target. Though the time frame involved matters, too. One to put someone down, and three following to keep him there, is a very different thing from four rounds fired wildly in a panic. I will say that having four panic rounds all go into a target’s head seems pretty unlikely. (Not claiming it’s impossible, just something that I’d want to hear an explanation for.) At the moment, there remains the presumption of innocence. So, while I’m skeptical of the accused’s claims, I would want to see more evidence than simply the articles linked here, before I come to a judgment. ETA: As for the article **diggleblop** linked - if they can’t solve that, or if they fail to charge the person who did it, I’d hope the local citizens demand some politician’s figurative heads. I don’t give a crap who does it: Vigilantism must not be tolerated. Esp. if it’s from the police themselves. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/35 "2008-07-15T02:36:59Z")
There is a report out tonight that the shooter had an Ohio concealed carry permit. They don’t say whether the weapon used was the one he registered. The report also said the shooter was cited for tinted windows in Twinsburg last year, but not by the officer who was shot. This, of course, adds no information upon which to base an opinion. Just further info. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/36 "2008-07-15T02:43:18Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] I’m getting a blame the victim vibe from this thread and I’ve got to say, it makes me a little sick. You don’t like the cops, that’s fine. The next time some nutbar like this murdering scumbag comes a’knockin, call a crackhead. [/QUOTE] Sounds a little over the top to me… Look, I am on the side of the cops 99% of the time, but some people in some situations have plenty to fear from the cops. For instance, just check Wikipedia: [Wikipedia.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality#2000.E2.80.93present) This guy had a legal concealed carry permit and really might have believed he was acting in self defense. If you typically give the police the benefit of the doubt (as is only right), you might want to try to cut this guy some slack and give him the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are available… Or we could just go and hang this _“murdering scumbag nutbar”_ from the nearest tree… ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/37 "2008-07-15T03:29:06Z")
He was an LPN who worked for the state, and that allowed him the CC permit. Really, in all of the reports I’ve read so far, this shooter seems like a normal type of guy. Not a badass or even a troublemaker. A couple of boring arrests, lived with his mom and was a LPN with Ohio Job & Family Services. Just seems really weird, all of it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/38 "2008-07-15T03:52:34Z")
[QUOTE=ZipperJJ] He was an LPN who worked for the state, and that allowed him the CC permit. [/QUOTE] Him having a CC license in Ohio is independent of him working for the State. Anyone who meets fairly standard requirements (they seem fairly close to the requirements I had to go through) can get one: [http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/concealcarry/index.asp](http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/concealcarry/index.asp) > [@](#): > > Really, in all of the reports I’ve read so far, this shooter seems like a normal type of guy. Not a badass or even a troublemaker. A couple of boring arrests, lived with his mom and was a LPN with Ohio Job & Family Services. > > Just seems really weird, all of it. It does beg many questions as to what really happened. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/39 "2008-07-15T03:58:40Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Right now, we have no idea whether it was self-defense or not. His attorney says he talked to a witness, so maybe this defense has something to it. We certainly don’t know that it was _not_ self-defense, and i think it’s fishy that the officer didn’t have his camera turned on. We’ll see. As for the “blame the victim” vibe – that’s how it goes, without fail, every single time the police kill somebody. [/QUOTE] But it’s not “fishy” that the officer’s gun remained in his holster? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499/40 "2008-07-15T04:03:49Z")
[QUOTE=Kinthalis] And instead of 4 times, the guy would have been perforated at least a couple of dozen times. [/QUOTE] Perhaps someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, police are trained to shoot until the gun is empty. So it’s only to be expected that a lot of bullets would get fired when it’s the cops doing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/routine-traffic-stop-officer-shot-4-times-in-the-head-self-defense-ro/456499.md?page=3)