# Rove takes a walk **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2006, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556 "2006-06-13T12:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/121 "2006-06-14T21:56:39Z")
Well, let’s ask another question. Is Robert Novak guilty of the same crime that Rove and Libby were involved in? What about the editors and publishers of Chicago Sun Times, that publish his column? What about the other newspapers? Is Robert Novak guilty of treason, just like Karl Rove? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/122 "2006-06-14T22:03:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Is Robert Novak guilty of the same crime that Rove and Libby were involved in? Nope. Unlike Rove and Libby, Novak wasn’t covered by a [Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement](http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/sf312.html). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/123 "2006-06-14T22:06:23Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, let’s ask another question. > > Is Robert Novak guilty of the same crime that Rove and Libby were involved in? > > What about the editors and publishers of Chicago Sun Times, that publish his column? What about the other newspapers? > > Is Robert Novak guilty of treason, just like Karl Rove? Why or why not? I was going to bring this exact thing up! Actually, even in the original analysis that Maureen did, Rove wouldn’t be guilty of treason, only conspiracy to commit treason. He didn’t actually reveal anything to an enemy, unless you consider (as some pols do 🙂 ) the press to be the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/124 "2006-06-14T22:13:00Z")
But Squink, is breaking your NDA treason? Maureen wasn’t arguing that Rove (and Scooter, everyone keeps forgetting Scooter) violated the NDA law when they burned Plame. She was arguing that they provided aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States, and therefore committed treason. So what’s Robert Novak, chopped liver? What about the Chicago Sun-Times? There were other reporters that Rove and Scooter leaked to that didn’t print the story. Did they have a legal or ethical obligation not to print the story? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/125 "2006-06-14T22:21:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But Squink, is breaking your NDA treason? > > Maureen wasn’t arguing that Rove (and Scooter, everyone keeps forgetting Scooter) violated the NDA law when they burned Plame. She was arguing that they provided aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States, and therefore committed treason. > > So what’s Robert Novak, chopped liver? What about the Chicago Sun-Times? There were other reporters that Rove and Scooter leaked to that didn’t print the story. Did they have a legal or ethical obligation not to print the story? Why or why not? If Robert Novak didn’t know that she was a covert agent, then it woudn’t have been any crime at all. Remember, all he knew was that she “worked at the CIA”. Lots of people “work at the CIA” but aren’t in covert status-- I suspect most aren’t. Now, if he knew that she was covert he would’ve been “aiding the enemy”. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/126 "2006-06-14T22:24:03Z")
_You_ asked about crime **Lemur866** , not specifically treason. Or does nothing else matter now that treason’s come up? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/127 "2006-06-14T22:39:20Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > _You_ asked about crime **Lemur866** , not specifically treason. > Or does nothing else matter now that treason’s come up? Yes. Nothing else matters now that treason’s come up. I’m gonna keep beating this horse until Maureen admits that Rove didn’t commit treason, and didn’t squeak out of treason charges on a technicality. Seriously, this treason talk infuriates me, because the people repeating it don’t seem to understand the implications. Do the treason-mongers really want an America where what Rove did could get him executed for treason? Or even sent to jail for treason? Really really? If the law and constitution were such that Rove were seriously facing treason charges, we’d be living in a totalitarian state. If the law were such that Rove were seriously facing treason charges, Rove wouldn’t be facing treason charges, since he’d be the one having people executed for treason. You, me, Maureen, everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/128 "2006-06-14T22:52:11Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I was going to bring this exact thing up! > > Actually, even in the original analysis that Maureen did, Rove wouldn’t be guilty of treason, only conspiracy to commit treason. He didn’t actually reveal anything to an enemy, unless you consider (as some pols do 🙂 ) the press to be the enemy. Actually, **John** , I did add conspiracy to [my original post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7487308&postcount=82) on the subject. **Lemur** , did Robert Novak release what he knew to be classified information with intent to harm the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/129 "2006-06-14T22:58:41Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I’m gonna keep beating this horse until Maureen admits that Rove didn’t commit treason, and didn’t squeak out of treason charges on a technicality. Um…I already did. Legally, he did not commit treason. IMO? Yes. He did. > [@](#): > > Seriously, this treason talk infuriates me, because the people repeating it don’t seem to understand the implications. Do the treason-mongers really want an America where what Rove did could get him executed for treason? Or even sent to jail for treason? Really really? Yes. I thoroughly understand it. It infuriates me, too. It infuriates me that anyone would intentionally release the identity of any covert operative with the intent of ruining that person or possibly even making sure harm comes to that person merely for petty revenge. _Especially_ when it could so easily jeapordize the safety of this nation. Especially when that person has made a very good livelihood by smearing other people’s reputations by painting them as unpatriotic. It infuriates me that anyone would be so cavalier with the lives of my country’s intelligence personnel. Maybe you think that’s okay, so long as he didn’t cross the legal line. I think it’s disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/130 "2006-06-14T22:59:28Z")
Of course Robert Novak didn’t intend to harm the United States, and NEITHER DID ROVE OR LIBBY. They wanted to harm Wilson, and the critics of the Iraq War. But what does it matter whether they realized outing Plame would have the secondary effect of harming the United States? If I publish a story criticizing the President, that could have the secondary effect of harming the United States. I’m not committing treason when I do. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/131 "2006-06-14T23:03:16Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Of course Robert Novak didn’t intend to harm the United States, and NEITHER DID ROVE OR LIBBY. > > They wanted to harm Wilson, and the critics of the Iraq War. **But what does it matter whether they realized outing Plame would have the secondary effect of harming the United States?** :eek: Secondary? What are you smoking? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/132 "2006-06-14T23:05:31Z")
> [@wring](#): > > **Maureen** - I’m on your side. but I think you’re not addressing his point. I don’t think he disagrees that intentionally disclosing the name of a CIA operative is a “really bad thing”, I dare say he’d even agree that doing so is counterproductive to USA interests. > > He’s stating (and **Bricker** supports) that as evil and bad and wrong as it may be, it does not reach up to the level of being “legally considered treasonous”. Certainly I think it’s (casual discussion ways, not to be confused w/criminally prosecutable) an act contrary to the greater good and safety of the US and its citizens, and if done (as it seems to have been) for political gain, certainly ranks (heh, good word for it) up there w/evil doings by Administration officials, but not, apparently legally chargable as treason. So, if it’s not treason, what is it? Jaywalking? Bad language? Jeebus, there have been allegations that at least one of Plame’s contacts was fucking KILLED because Rove let the cat outta the bag for his petty, vindictive reasons. Is tsk-tsking about what a naughty thing Rove did all we are gonna do because it doesn’t fit some fucking tortured legal definition of “treason”? Where’s the fucking moral outrage over this goddamned shit? I’m sick of people trying to talk down heinous, vicious, arrogant scumfuckery as if it were just a matter of fucking semantics. Karl Rove didn’t just betray “the American people” he betrayed Valerie Plame and the people who worked with her on America’s behalf, and who trusted her. He belongs in a fucking jail cell, at the VERY LEAST. What Rove REALLY deserves is the full legal penalty for the official crime of treason. Fucking semanticians around here wouldn’t know reality if it bit them in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/133 "2006-06-14T23:10:24Z")
So Evil Captor and Maureen, you would be happy to see Rove executed for what he did? Because I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying. On the one hand you’re specific, “full penalty for treason”. You wanna kill Karl Rove? Really? Do you honestly think that if we regularly executed people who did what Karl Rove did that America would be a better place? Fuck no, you know it wouldn’t be, because that broad treason law would be used against people like you and me, not people like Karl Rove. You know it, I know it, the American people know it. Executing Karl Rove: Wrong Public policy. Wrong for America. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/134 "2006-06-14T23:16:21Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So Evil Captor and Maureen, you would be happy to see Rove executed for what he did? > > Because I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying. > > On the one hand you’re specific, “full penalty for treason”. You wanna kill Karl Rove? Really? > > Do you honestly think that if we regularly executed people who did what Karl Rove did that America would be a better place? Fuck no, you know it wouldn’t be, because that broad treason law would be used against people like you and me, not people like Karl Rove. You know it, I know it, the American people know it. > > Executing Karl Rove: Wrong Public policy. Wrong for America. Just how many people do you think have the ability to out CIA agents as Rove did? I frankly am not terrified of being prosecuted for doing what Rove did, because I have no CAPACITY to do what Rove did, like almost everyone in America. I think Karl Rove should be liable for what he did because I believe it constitutes treason in the specific, real world sense of betraying American state secrets, which the identity of covert CIA agents HAS to be, to the world. I think it’s treason. He should pay. I don’t give a fuck about the legal semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/135 "2006-06-14T23:16:56Z")
Stick it on a bumper and smoke it. Firstly, I oppose the death penalty, so I don’t hold with anyone being killed. (Oh, and where, exactly, did I say “Full penalty for treason”? I saw **Bricker’s** definition of it; I never said he should be executed) Life in prison? Nope, I have no problem with seeing his ass go to jail for what he did. Maybe you can equate it with a public march supporting a full recall of the troops and say it’s the same thing. I don’t. And you never explained why you feel it’s alright that the “secondary” effect of Rove’s outing Plame might have been a breach of our national security. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/136 "2006-06-14T23:28:39Z")
Maureen, Evil Captor said: > [@](#): > > He belongs in a fucking jail cell, at the VERY LEAST. What Rove REALLY deserves is the full legal penalty for the official crime of treason. If that isn’t calling for the death penalty for Rove, I don’t know exactly WHAT he’s saying. You’re the one who kept talking about intent, how we didn’t know his intent. But pay attention. If his intent mattered, then you’d have to say his intent was to aid and comfort the enemies of America, right? Or am I misinterpreting? You know and I know that Rove and Libby didn’t do that. They wanted to impeach Wilson’s credibility when he said that Niger wasn’t sending uranium to Iraq. Agreed? Even if we assume Rove and Libby are moustache twirling villains, they at most wanted to punish Wilson for daring to cross them. Did they want to hurt the US? Did they want to help Al Qaida? You can’t be saying that. So if their intent matters at all, there’s no possible way they could have adhered to the enemeis of the United States by giving them aid and comfort. Evil Captor, sure, you’re not gonna reveal the secret identity of a CIA agent. So what? You could do a lot of damage to America, just by posting on the internet. Like, if you were a blogger. You wanna see Karl Rove with the power to haul Arianna Huffington to the gallows for talking trash about America? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/137 "2006-06-14T23:41:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Maureen, Evil Captor said: > If that isn’t calling for the death penalty for Rove, I don’t know exactly WHAT he’s saying. I think Rove deserves to be tried for it. Being against the death penalty I suppose life imprisonment without possibility of parole will have to do. But still, it’s nice to think of Rove strapped down to that gurney with the needles in his arm, watching the doctors and wondering if the painkiller drug will wear off too quickly while the paralytic drug works its way on him, leaving him unable to even communicate the unspeakable agonies he goes through while the actual killing drug does him in. Nice but not for the real world … > [@](#): > > Evil Captor, sure, you’re not gonna reveal the secret identity of a CIA agent. So what? You could do a lot of damage to America, just by posting on the internet. Like, if you were a blogger. You wanna see Karl Rove with the power to haul Arianna Huffington to the gallows for talking trash about America? {Singing}“One of these things is not like the other …” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/138 "2006-06-14T23:45:49Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Of course Robert Novak didn’t intend to harm the United States, and NEITHER DID ROVE OR LIBBY. “Oops, we carelessly blew [an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060213-cia-iran.htm)” It’s a good thing no one cares about the truth with respect to Iran’s enrichment program, otherwise they might not be willing to forgive even an ‘honest’ error on the part of Rove and Libby. Anyway, Bush got his mandate in November 2004, so it’s all water under the brridge anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/139 "2006-06-14T23:47:47Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > He should pay. I don’t give a fuck about the legal semantics. And yet, when the Bush administration imprisons people at Guantanamo with the precise rationale you’ve just offered – “…they should pay; we don’t give a fuck about legal semantics…” – somehow, they are wrong. Crazy world. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556/140 "2006-06-14T23:52:55Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Thanks! You took two paragraphs to say “I got nothin’!” but at least it was done entertainingly. Which makes me a lot more efficient than this thread which is on page 3 over the fact they ain’t got nothing on Rove. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-takes-a-walk/360556.md?page=8)