# Rove treason coverup investigation widens to include Gonzalez **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039 "2005-07-25T12:57:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/41 "2005-07-25T20:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Q Yes, thank you. There has been a lot of speculation concerning the meaning of the underlying statute and the grand jury investigation concerning Mr. Rove. The question is, have the legal counsel to the White House or White House staff reviewed the statute in sufficient specificity to determine **whether a violation of that statute would, in effect, constitute treason?** > > MR. McCLELLAN: I think that in terms of decisions regarding the investigation, those are matters for those overseeing the investigation to decide. > > Q Thank you. > > MR. McCLELLAN: Thank you. [White house press conference, July 25,2005](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050725-5.html) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/42 "2005-07-25T20:45:40Z")
Definitely seems like a tempest in a teapot to me…liberal porn for sure. I can’t see this going anywhere…just some bread and circuses for the faithful to keep them outraged, hungry and growling until '06 rolls around. To me the key parts are: > [@](#): > > July 8, 2003 – Columnist Robert Novak calls senior White House adviser Karl Rove, according to subsequent media accounts. Novak tells Rove he had heard that Joseph Wilson’s wife, who worked for the CIA, played a role in Joseph Wilson’s trip to Niger. Rove confirms the story to Novak **without mentioning Valerie Wilson’s name or covert status** , saying “I heard that, too.” ( Rove … Talk on C.I.A. Officer, NY Times, July 2003). Novak will later write that he originally acquired the information from an official who is “no partisan gunslinger.” Novak says, “When I called another official for confirmation, he said: ‘Oh, you know about it.’” (Novak, " CIA Leak" Chicago Sun-Times, Oct 2003). > > July 11, 2003 –Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper calls Rove, who cautions him to be careful of Wilson’s story, “‘Don’t get too far out on Wilson ,’ he told me,” Cooper later writes. Rove tells Cooper that Wilson’s wife works for the CIA on “WMD” (Weapons of Mass Destruction) and that it was she, not Cheney or the CIA’s director, who was “responsible” for sending Wilson to Africa.\*\* “Rove never used her name…indeed, I did not learn her name until the following week,” \*\* Cooper later recalls adding, \*\*“Rove never once indicated to me that she had any kind of covert status." \*\* Cooper says Rove ends the call saying “I’ve already said too much.” > > Cooper also says he earlier had talked to Cheney’s Chief of Staff, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, about the story. “I asked Libby if he had heard anything about Wilson 's wife sending her husband to Niger. Libby replied, ‘Yeah, I’ve heard that too,’ or words to that effect. Like Rove, Libby never used Valerie Plame’s name or indicated that her status was covert.” (Matthew Cooper, " What I told the Grand Jury, ” Time, July 2005). Sounds to me like it a case of a cleaver reporter, where the reporter hints that they have more information than they do and tricks the person into revealing some additional crumbs. But Rove never, afaict, came right out and revealed her name or her covert status. Nor did he initiate the conversations but was merely responding to reporters questions. And its clear to me that he knew he’d fucked up when he said “I’ve already said too much.” Clearly he screwed up. But treason? Get a grip guys. Perhaps he should be fired, perhaps not…I’m unsure. But I know gross hyperbole and partisan foam when I smell it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/43 "2005-07-25T20:47:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Thought [this](http://www.factcheck.org/article337.html) might be helpful as generally [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) is pretty reliable: > > While I was there I figured I’d post Factchecks take on this, just because I’m sick of seeing this yellowcake thing. From [Factcheck](http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html): > > -XT Rumsfeld already told us that the sixteen words were “technically correct.” What else could we want? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/44 "2005-07-25T21:21:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You don’t think blowing an agent’s cover is giving aid and comfort? I beg to differ. As has been mentioned, not under the law. If you want, I can get you a list of people actually convicted of treason and what they did to get convicted. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/45 "2005-07-25T21:47:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > To me the key parts are: The Kool-Aid is damn tasty, ain’t it, X? So tell me, do you get your own personal copy of the Republican Lies and Spin (aka Talking Points) delivered directly to your email, or do you just absorb and regurgitate from listening to Hannity, et al? Didn’t use her name… good grief, could it get more pathetic??? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/46 "2005-07-25T21:51:09Z")
I didn’t realize that Factcheck was part of the ‘Republican Lies and Spin’ machine Stoid ole buddy. And here I didn’t even think I WAS a Republican! :eek: Imagine my shock and horror to find out that I was and didn’t even know it. :dubious: -XT ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/47 "2005-07-25T21:57:21Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > And herein lies the problem. Any of you folks who immediately dismiss anything you hear on “right wing” media should make sure you apply the same standards elsewhere. > > Feel free to haunt me with this post in the future if possible, but “Rovegate” Will turn out to be nothing more than liberal porn. For some reason, after reading your post, I immediately thought of 3 monkeys each covering a key part of their heads with their hands. Now why is that? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/48 "2005-07-25T22:09:29Z")
This is just too funny. You want to talk about abuses at Gitmo? How about comparing that camp to a NAZI concentration camp. Oh, gee, now we’re off on a tangent arguing whether or not the NAZI comparison is correct. You want to talk about whether or not Rove committed a crime? How about calling it treason? Oh, gee, now we’re off on a tangent arguing about whether or not it’s treason. Politically, the worst thing that could happen for the Democrats is for Rove to actually resign. As long as he’s on Bush’s staff, this thing makes front page news. There is no way in hell that Rove is going to be convicted of outing a covert agent. He may be found guilty of leaking classified information, or perhaps obstruction of justice. But treason? Someone who thinks so needs to come up with a treason case similar to this one. I’d really like to see it. Or, how about a little bet whether or not Rove is even charged with treason (not convicted, just charged). I’ll give 10,000 to 1 odds on that bet. Name the amount. But some folks just never get it. They think that yelling the shrillest, most outrageous thing they can is the best way to get their point across. Jeez, even \*\*rjung \*\*isn’t ready to call it treason. Anyone need more “proof” than that? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/49 "2005-07-25T22:54:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > But Rove never, afaict, came right out and revealed her name No, he didn’t mention her _name_. He merely identified her as _the wife of Joe Wilson_. Some distinction. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/50 "2005-07-25T23:01:22Z")
> [@andros](#): > > No, he didn’t mention her name. He merely identified her as the wife of Joe Wilson. Some distinction. No, actually he confirmed to a reporter that it was: > [@](#): > > July 8, 2003 – Columnist Robert Novak calls senior White House adviser Karl Rove, according to subsequent media accounts. **Novak tells Rove he had heard that Joseph Wilson’s wife** , who worked for the CIA, played a role in Joseph Wilson’s trip to Niger. \*\*Rove confirms the story to Novak without mentioning Valerie Wilson’s name or covert status, saying “I heard that, too.” \*\* ( Rove … Talk on C.I.A. Officer, NY Times, July 2003). Novak will later write that he originally acquired the information from an official who is “no partisan gunslinger.” Novak says, “When I called another official for confirmation, he said: ‘Oh, you know about it.’” (Novak, " CIA Leak" Chicago Sun-Times, Oct 2003). See the distinction? “I heard that, too”. You get it? Of course you don’t…you just want Roves blood. Not a problem. If you guys manage to pin treason on him I won’t say boo. But I wouldn’t recommend holding your breath for them to charge, much less convict Rove of treason. And you’ll be able to kick back and kumbya each other with songs of the vast Republican Spin Machine having gotten this traitorous bastard off the hook… Now, leave me be…I have some kool aid to drink… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/51 "2005-07-25T23:01:46Z")
Heh. Yep, **andros** , I loved that weasely excuse, “I never mentioned her by name!” That’s our Karl, all right… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/52 "2005-07-25T23:04:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Jeez, even \*\*rjung \*\*isn’t ready to call it treason. Anyone need more “proof” than that? I’d be more convinced if Mr. McClellan hadn’t been afraid to call it NOT-treason. Is not-treason prospering? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/53 "2005-07-25T23:04:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You get it? Of course you don’t…you just want Roves blood. Cite, please. And when you realize you can’t find one, I expect an apology. Don’t put words in my mouth, Sparky. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/54 "2005-07-25T23:09:18Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > I’d be more convinced if Mr. McClellan hadn’t been afraid to call it NOT-treason. Is not-treason prospering? Meh. He’s in “no comment mode” right now, and I don’t blame it. He’s either not too bright, or he is left out to dry a lot. I almost feel sorry for the guy sometimes, as it really looks like he often “didn’t get the memo”, if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/55 "2005-07-25T23:09:24Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Cite, please. And when you realize you can’t find one, I expect an apology. :rolleyes: > [@andros](#): > > Don’t put words in my mouth, Sparky. Ok Chief…whatever you say. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/56 "2005-07-25T23:18:03Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > :rolleyes: Roll your eyes all you fucking want, you still lied. Let’s go, pal. Trot 'em out. Demonstrate that I’m out to get Rove. Demonstrate that I’m a liberal. Fuck, demonstrate that I’m a Democrat, even. Oh, right. you can’t. 'Cos it ain’t true. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/57 "2005-07-25T23:30:47Z")
Chill out andros. Sorry to have gotten your back up. I get accused of being a Bush supporter and Republican all the time and I never fly off the handle like that. When I said ‘you’ I didn’t necerssarily mean YOU, andros…it was more a generic ‘you’ for folks who just want to bash Bush and are out for Karls blood reguardless of the facts. Sorry that I lumped you in with that. But asking me for a cite was…well, kind of stupid. However, I appologize. Ok? Now go take a time out. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/58 "2005-07-25T23:40:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I didn’t realize that Factcheck was part of the ‘Republican Lies and Spin’ machine Stoid ole buddy. And here I didn’t even think I WAS a Republican! :eek: That line sounds just as unconvincing when Bill O’Reilly uses it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/59 "2005-07-25T23:43:24Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > But asking me for a cite was…well, kind of stupid. Not nearly as stupid as dismissing arguably valid criticisms out of hand with dumbass assertions about my motives. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/60 "2005-07-25T23:49:26Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > That line sounds just as unconvincing when Bill O’Reilly uses it. Case in point. rjung has been trying to paint me as a closet Republican and Bush supporter who is secretly a pro-life right wing fanatic for years now and periodically feels the need to try and convince everyone I’m a spy or something. I could fly off the handle, ask him for cites, burst blood vessels, take him to the pit, call him names, not let him play in any reindeer games, etc etc. But what would be the point? Not like I respect his opinion or anything, or that I figure he has a good handle on reality, let alone my political leanings. Soldier on rjung, soldier on. One day you will catch me at it…but it won’t be this day. 😛 One question for you though rjung as I am curious…ARE you saying that [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) is a Republican tool? If so, on what do you base that? I’ve always thought that generally speaking folks on this board felt it was reasonably unbiased. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039.md?page=4)