# Rove treason coverup investigation widens to include Gonzalez **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039 "2005-07-25T12:57:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/141 "2005-07-28T15:54:22Z")
As others have noted elsewhere, it’s fairly clear that he violated his SF 312 “Classified Information Non-disclosure Agreement” at the least ([PDF version of SF 312](http://contacts.gsa.gov/webforms.nsf/0/03A78F16A522716785256A69004E23F6/%24file/SF312.pdf)). > [@](#): > > 1. I have been advised that the unauthorized disclosure, unauthorized retention, or negligent handling of classified information by me could cause damage or irreparable injury to the United States or could be used to advantage by a foreign nation. I hereby agree that I will never divulge classified information to anyone unless: (a) I have officially verified that the recipient has been properly authorized by the United States Government to receive it; or (b) I have been given prior written notice of authorization from the United States Government Department or Agency (hereinafter Department or Agency) responsible for the classification of the information or last granting me a security clearance that such disclosure is permitted. I understand that if I am uncertain about the classification status of information, I am required to confirm from an authorized official that the information is unclassified before I may disclose it, except to a person as provided in (a) or (b), above. I further understand that I am obligated to comply with laws and regulations that prohibit the unauthorized disclosure of classified information. > > 2. I have been advised that any breach of this Agreement may result in the termination of any security clearances I hold; removal from any position of special confidence and trust requiring such clearances; or the termination of my employment or other relationships with the Departments or Agencies that granted my security clearance or clearances. In addition, I have been advised that any unauthorized disclosure of classified information by me may constitute a violation, or violations, of United States criminal laws, including the provisions of Sections 641, 793, 794, 798, \*952 and 1924, Title 18, United States Code, \* the provisions of Section 783(b), Title 50, United States Code, and the provisions of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982. I recognize that nothing in this Agreement constitutes a waiver by the United States of the right to prosecute me for any statutory violation. I agree that talking about treason, in any formal sense, probably isn’t helpful, because it would be a fairly easy charge to dismiss. I appreciate the idea that this would compel the defenders to talk about treason and about what Rove really did, but I think it would be fairly easy to do in a non-damaging way (for Rove and his supporters). I also, as much as I hate Rove, cannot see it myself as treason, in the sense of one trying to harm our country. I think that the result was that he did harm the country, and I think that his intent was malicious (as in trying to smear someone else), but treason connotes something different for me. I think the best way to talk about it is in terms of what it was - an illegal (felonious?) and vindictive release of classified information that damaged our ability to defend ourselves from those who would use WMD against us. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/142 "2005-07-28T15:54:54Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Help me out here. > **Why would you choose to frame the debate in terms that’ll cause you to lose the debate?** > **Why wouldn’t you choose to frame the debate in terms you can win with?** > Like simply whether or not it was conduct unbecoming an Administration official. > > **Explain why losing the debate is the “smarter” alternative.** You have NO FUCKING IDEA who we will be debating for the benefit of, do you? We are debating for the TV idjits. They are NOT a bright bunch. If you try to frame the debate in terms of 'violated provisions of the 1996 Espionage Act which forbids this or that," their eyes will glaze over. If you are a Democrat seeking to alert people to what a scumbag he is and what kind of things he has done, YOU HAVE LOST THE DEBATE RIGHT THERE! When their eyes glaze over, and they glaze over VERY EASILY, you have LOST THEM!! Game over, baberino! If you frame the debate in terms of, “Is Karl Rove a TRAITOR? Did he BETRAY his country? Has he committed TREASON?” their eyes will stay brightnshiny because these are simple things they can understand. If you like that often enough with “outed CIA agent Valerie Plame” they’ll link those two together. And if a court does find Rove innocent, it’ll have as much effect as a court finding OJ Simpson innocent. I.e., none. The ONLY way we Dems can win the debate is by keeping things short and simple and filled with emotionally loaded words like TRAITOR, TREASON, BETRAYAL. It’s that simple. It really is. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/143 "2005-07-28T16:00:42Z")
And then, when Rove isn’t found to be guilty of treason (but maybe of some lesser thing), the stupid sods (a.k.a. The American People who are nearly too dumb to even feed themselves…least thats the impression I get from your post Hentor) will yawn and go 'Welp, guess he really WASN’T a traitor. Damn Democrats had me going there for a while but guess they was wrong. Oh well…wonder whats on Desparate Housewives tonight…" How did the ‘Bush Lied!’ thing work out in the last election btw? Just curious… -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/144 "2005-07-28T16:02:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And then, when Rove isn’t found to be guilty of treason (but maybe of some lesser thing), the stupid sods (a.k.a. The American People who are nearly too dumb to even feed themselves…least thats the impression I get from your post **Hentor** ) will yawn and go 'Welp, guess he really WASN’T a traitor. Damn Democrats had me going there for a while but guess they was wrong. Oh well…wonder whats on Desparate Housewives tonight…" Yikes…sorry Hentor. That was meant to be directed at EC. Profound appologies. -XT ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/145 "2005-07-28T17:42:06Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > You have NO FUCKING IDEA who we will be debating for the benefit of, do you? Slow your roll there cap’n. Take a deep breath. Go smoke a cup of coffe and calm down a bit. Being nasty don’t make you argument any better. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > We are debating for the TV idjits. They are NOT a bright bunch. And how do you suppose these “idjits,” as you so respectfully refer to them, will take it when you lose the debate? > [@Evil Captor](#): > > If you try to frame the debate in terms of 'violated provisions of the 1996 Espionage Act which forbids this or that," their eyes will glaze over. And what’s so wrong with the “conduct unbecoming an Amdinistration official” angle? ---
**Author:** ![boret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@boret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boret)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/146 "2005-07-28T18:52:23Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > You have NO FUCKING IDEA who we will be debating for the benefit of, do you? We are debating for the TV idjits. They are NOT a bright bunch. If you try to frame the debate in terms of 'violated provisions of the 1996 Espionage Act which forbids this or that," their eyes will glaze over. If you are a Democrat seeking to alert people to what a scumbag he is and what kind of things he has done, YOU HAVE LOST THE DEBATE RIGHT THERE! When their eyes glaze over, and they glaze over VERY EASILY, you have LOST THEM!! Game over, baberino! I think you are mistaking ignorance for stupidity. There is a difference. An ignorant person will pick up on your demeaning attitude and become hostile and defensive. Or just tune you out. Because you will affirm the stereotype of “frothing at the mouth leftist” they keep hearing so much about. Then _you_ have lost them. How is that helpful to anyone? Maybe your anger and bitterness are affecting your better judgement? But you are only proving that even a bright person can have trouble thinking straight for one reason or another. > [@](#): > > The ONLY way we Dems can win the debate is by keeping things short and simple and filled with emotionally loaded words like TRAITOR, TREASON, BETRAYAL. > > It’s that simple. It really is. Absolutism and “simple” solutions are what got us into this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/147 "2005-07-28T20:46:16Z")
> [@boret](#): > > Absolutism and “simple” solutions are what got us into this mess. To say nothing of the administration dressing up the facts to fit their own personal bias. We can’t stop this sort of crap by engaging in it ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/148 "2005-07-28T23:44:19Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > What we have to do is keep the heat on by asking: Did Karl Rove commit TREASON? To what extent did his behavior BETRAY the United States? Is he a TRAITOR to his country? These are EXACTLY the kinds of words that Rove, Gingrich and assorted other Republican spinmeisters have used on Dems in the past – I think two of them are on the list of words Repubicans should use in describing Democrats that Gingrich circulated back in the early 90s. > > Dems and liberals who say, “I dunno, we oughtta back off from treason if it can’t be proved in a court of law eventually” are being chumps. I don’t know if he’ll get nailed for treason or not – I doubt it – but if we can FRAME the debate in terms of treason, betrayal, etc., that keeps the Pubbies on the defensive, endlessly forced to explain that all he did was out a covert CIA agent – which most people think of as treason, betrayal, traitorous, etc. > > I thought you guys were smarter than that. No, it’s perfectly fine to pour on the coals in general public discussion, and on the political soundbite stage. But, that will not work in court. In other words, heap all the abuse possible to get or keep the public outraged and scare the politicians, but do the real gravedigging, with real and proveable charges in terms of what will stick (the charges, indictment, etc) in the investigation itself and in court. In other words, get 'em to watch your left hand, and then land the haymaker with the right hand. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/149 "2005-07-29T01:12:21Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And then, when Rove isn’t found to be guilty of treason (but maybe of some lesser thing), the stupid sods (a.k.a. The American People who are nearly too dumb to even feed themselves…least thats the impression I get from your post Hentor) will yawn and go 'Welp, guess he really WASN’T a traitor. Damn Democrats had me going there for a while but guess they was wrong. Oh well…wonder whats on Desparate Housewives tonight…" > > How did the ‘Bush Lied!’ thing work out in the last election btw? Just curious… > > -XT Actually, have you LOOKED at Bush’s approval ratings lately? The Dem spin machine is finally landing a few blows. It wasn’t enough to keep Bush from getting re-elected by the slimmest of margins, but it may have had more of a carryover effect. Look, the Dem strategy of mumbling incoherently and apologetically HAS NOT WORKED. We need the same kind of vigor in our public voices that the Repubs have. Otherwise, nobody will hear the Dems. As for your point about the sods … hey, six months to a year of hearing “Rove … traitor … treason … Plame” and it won’t MATTER what the verdict is. The Pubbie faithful may crow, but the damage will have been done. If you’ll recall, the Pubbies have used this technique VERY effectively against the Dems, even when they had nothing but lies to work with. The Dams will actually have something of substance. Should be fun! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/150 "2005-07-29T01:18:45Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Slow your roll there cap’n. Take a deep breath. Go smoke a cup of coffe and calm down a bit. Being nasty don’t make you argument any better. I believe you were the one who started the exchange by shouting with extra large type. You’ve no cause to complain if loud comments generate sharp comments in return. [/quote] And how do you suppose these “idjits,” as you so respectfully refer to them, will take it when you lose the debate? [/quote] Won’t lose the debate. Six months to a year of calling Rove a traitor while the Pubbies stammer and say how Rove didn’t REALLY out Valerie Plame, and the verdict just doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > And what’s so wrong with the “conduct unbecoming an Amdinistration official” angle? Lacks emotional power. Compare with: “TRAITOR!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/151 "2005-07-29T01:25:42Z")
> [@boret](#): > > I think you are mistaking ignorance for stupidity. There is a difference. An ignorant person will pick up on your demeaning attitude and become hostile and defensive. Or just tune you out. Because you will affirm the stereotype of “frothing at the mouth leftist” they keep hearing so much about. > > Then _you_ have lost them. How is that helpful to anyone? > > Maybe your anger and bitterness are affecting your better judgement? But you are only proving that even a bright person can have trouble thinking straight for one reason or another.Absolutism and “simple” solutions are what got us into this mess. I’m not bitter. I know the people who STILL believe Saddam was involved in 911 turned the last election. I know they’re dumber than a box of rocks. I’m not mad at them for that, they can’t help it, much. I just think we Dems have to play on their stupidity and fears, just as the Pubbies do, if we want to win elections. The TV idjits will never pick up on my attitude 'cause you know what? They don’t hang out on Internet message boards. They watch TV for entertainment. Nothing wrong with that, but unless some Fox News pundit decides to use my posts to demonstrate Dem arrogance – a highly unlikely scenario, to say the least – none of the TV idjits will ever know. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/152 "2005-07-29T01:27:03Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Actually, have you LOOKED at Bush’s approval ratings lately? The Dem spin machine is finally landing a few blows. It wasn’t enough to keep Bush from getting re-elected by the slimmest of margins, but it may have had more of a carryover effect. Well, its not exactly all spin…most likely Bush DID lie. The point though is that all the chest beating and shrieking about him lieing instead of focusing on the point (which was that lieing or not Iraq was a major fuck up and it was BUSH’S responsibility) availed you nothing as Bush ended up getting re-elected. It allowed the Republicans to basically focus on the lie part and shift the battle to one they could win (since you couldn’t PROVE that Bush had lied…at least not prove to anyone who wasn’t already pre-disposed to thinking everything Bush does is a lie). And the result was…Bush is still president. I think, similarly, that focusing on the feel good rant that Rove is a traitor will have a similar effect. YMMV though and perhaps it will work out better for you this time. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > If you’ll recall, the Pubbies have used this technique VERY effectively against the Dems, even when they had nothing but lies to work with. The Dams will actually have something of substance. Should be fun! I hope it works out for you…but I’m not confident this is the best tact. But, you know, I’ve been wrong enough that perhaps I’m not the best one to offer advice anyway. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/153 "2005-07-29T01:29:07Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > To say nothing of the administration dressing up the facts to fit their own personal bias. > We can’t stop this sort of crap by engaging in it ourselves. Yes, we must continue to bring knives to the gunfight. This will assure more glorious victories like the ones we’ve been having lately. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/154 "2005-07-29T01:31:24Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > No, it’s perfectly fine to pour on the coals in general public discussion, and on the political soundbite stage. But, that will not work in court. In other words, heap all the abuse possible to get or keep the public outraged and scare the politicians, but do the real gravedigging, with real and proveable charges in terms of what will stick (the charges, indictment, etc) in the investigation itself and in court. In other words, get 'em to watch your left hand, and then land the haymaker with the right hand. We’re in agreement, then. I don’t think anybody in this messageboard has any power to influence the Plame investigation, and it’ll be Fitzgerald who decides what he’ll be charging whom with. But so long as the investigation continues, even if Rove isn’t the primary target, the Dems can and should keep his disgustingly little pink feet in the fire. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/155 "2005-07-29T01:45:23Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > We’re in agreement, then. I don’t think anybody in this messageboard has any power to influence the Plame investigation, and it’ll be Fitzgerald who decides what he’ll be charging whom with. But so long as the investigation continues, even if Rove isn’t the primary target, the Dems can and should keep his disgustingly little pink feet in the fire. I am hoping that the fact that the Fitzgerald investigation is still going will mean that there is something he can file charges on. If there had been nothing, I doubt he would be wasting his time with it these past 2 years. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/156 "2005-07-29T02:32:01Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I believe you were the one who started the exchange by shouting with extra large type. You’ve no cause to complain if loud comments generate sharp comments in return. I was referring to your French. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Won’t lose the debate. Six months to a year of calling Rove a traitor while the Pubbies stammer and say how Rove didn’t REALLY out Valerie Plame, and the verdict just doesn’t matter. The debate is lost in the first exchange. It’s already being lost in multiple places on the internet **s**. Here for example. Despite you assertions about your hypothetical, target audience’s stupidity, they really aren’t. Uninformed, underinformed, misinformed and malinformed, yes. But stupid, no. Further it plays to a very unflattering caricature of Dems that has already been established, crafted, honed, polished and ready for further use. It’ll be just more grist for Team Bush’s noise machine mill. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/157 "2005-07-29T02:45:29Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > I was referring to your French. > > The debate is lost in the first exchange. It’s already being lost in multiple places on the internet **s**. Here for example. > > Despite you assertions about your hypothetical, target audience’s stupidity, they really aren’t. Uninformed, underinformed, misinformed and malinformed, yes. But stupid, no. > > Further it plays to a very unflattering caricature of Dems that has already been established, crafted, honed, polished and ready for further use. It’ll be just more grist for Team Bush’s noise machine mill. Well, we have a fairly fundamental difference of opinion here. What you’re talking about isn’t even close to what I’m seeing. We may have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![boret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@boret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boret)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/158 "2005-07-30T20:45:50Z")
**Evil Captor** , I came across this and thought of you and this thread: [http://www.actionforum.com/forum/index.html?forum\_id=271](http://www.actionforum.com/forum/index.html?forum_id=271) > [@](#): > > **Fire Karl Rove Slogan Contest** > > We want to create the sort of buzz about Karl Rove you can see when you walk down the street. That’s why we’ve launched a Fire Karl Rove Slogan Contest to figure out the slogan for a downloadable poster we’ll send to all 3.5 million MoveOn members. Suggest your best idea for a good slogan or rate the slogans of other MoveOn members. The collective ratings of MoveOn members will decide the winner. Slogan writing and rating ends at 8:00 PM Eastern on Tuesday, August 2, 2005. **Karl Rove: The Voice of Treason** is in a close second place to the leading entry of \*\* It’s not Left or Right–it’s WRONG. Fire Karl Rove\*\* as I post this. “Treason” figures prominently in many of the entries. If you like that one - or think you can do better - here’s your opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/159 "2005-08-01T23:26:46Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I am hoping that the fact that the Fitzgerald investigation is still going will mean that there is something he can file charges on. If there had been nothing, I doubt he would be wasting his time with it these past 2 years. Forgotten Ken Starr already, have we? And that’s the problem - the Pubbie partisans have succeeded in convincing many of us that the way they have done business is simply the way business is done in Washington, and that this is just another example, get over it. Damn shame, too. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039/160 "2005-08-02T02:26:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Forgotten Ken Starr already, have we? > > And that’s the problem - the Pubbie partisans have succeeded in convincing many of us that the way they have done business is simply the way business is done in Washington, and that this is just another example, get over it. Damn shame, too. Ken Starr spent a lot of time and effort, and all he could get was that Clinton lied about a blowjob. If anything, by evading and lying, Willy put his own neck in the noose. Dumb move, looking back. If he had just said “Yeah I did” from the start, there would have been no perjury accusations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rove-treason-coverup-investigation-widens-to-include-gonzalez/314039.md?page=9)