# Rove's racist push-poll against MCain: Is there any doubt Rove did it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915 "2005-07-24T12:45:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/1 "2005-07-24T12:45:10Z")
For those not aware of the story, back when Bush was campaiging for the 2000 Repub nomination: > [@](#): > > Bush’s campaign strategists, including Karl Rove, devised a push poll against John McCain. South Carolina voters were asked “Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?”. They had no interest in the actual percentages in the poll, the goal was to suggest that [McCain had a black child]. This was particularly vicious since McCain was campaining with his adopted [dark skinned] Bangladeshi daughter [http://lawnorder.dailykos.com/story/2004/8/26/31853/5881](http://lawnorder.dailykos.com/story/2004/8/26/31853/5881) Is there doubt that this incredibly dirty trick was done, and that Rove was involved if not behind it? Or is pretty much accepted that it happened? Have any of the recent stories about Rove (re:Plame) in major news outlets mentioned this incident? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/2 "2005-07-24T14:21:13Z")
I gave this a modicum of thought then read the linked article and dismissed it as typical anti-Bush stuff. Despite the possibility that it might be true. Isn’t that telling about politics? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/3 "2005-07-24T14:34:49Z")
Wasn’t there a clip of McCain calling Bush out about this matter during a debate, with Bush looking highly uncomfortable, but not denying it? Is it known for certain that _someone_ conducted such a push poll? If it did happen, I for one would need to hear arguments as to who else but Rove (or some dirty dealer for the Bush team) did it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/4 "2005-07-24T15:57:31Z")
[QUOTE=RevtimIs there doubt that this incredibly dirty trick was done, and that Rove was involved if not behind it? Or is pretty much accepted that it happened?[/QUOTE] Give us the proof you have that Rove did it, and you’ll remove all doubt. Clearly it’s “accepted that it happened” by the anti-Bush camp. Getting a bunch of anti-Bush folks on this board to chime in doesn’t change anything. But you knew that… ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/5 "2005-07-24T16:19:38Z")
If I had proof, I wouldn’t have needed to open this thread to ask the question, would I? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/6 "2005-07-24T16:30:15Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Give us the proof you have that Rove did it, and you’ll remove all doubt. Clearly it’s “accepted that it happened” by the anti-Bush camp. Getting a bunch of anti-Bush folks on this board to chime in doesn’t change anything. But you knew that… …Which is why he asked the question in the first place… ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/7 "2005-07-24T16:31:35Z")
This is kind of odd, but I think I have a friend that was involved in this. He was working at a telephone survey company at the time and I remember him talking about really wierd and biased mud-slinging survey involving racism, illigit kids and a polital candiadate somewhere far far away from California. I’ll report back to you if I can get ahold of him. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/8 "2005-07-24T16:36:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Give us the proof you have that Rove did it, and you’ll remove all doubt. Clearly it’s “accepted that it happened” by the anti-Bush camp. Getting a bunch of anti-Bush folks on this board to chime in doesn’t change anything. But you knew that… …Which is why he asked the question in the first place… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/9 "2005-07-24T16:42:20Z")
When my computer gives me error messages and doubleposts, that’s Karl Rove’s fault too. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/10 "2005-07-24T16:44:46Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Is there doubt that this incredibly dirty trick was done, and that Rove was involved if not behind it? Or is pretty much accepted that it happened? While there appears to be little doubt that it actually happened, I’m not aware of any proof that links it to Rove. > [@](#): > > Have any of the recent stories about Rove (re:Plame) in major news outlets mentioned this incident? A few of the stories out their mention his potential ties to push-polling. In fact, [one of them](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1165126,00.html) mentions a similar push-polling incident that happened during the Bush gubernatorial campaign, which was also run by Rove. When such push-polling seems to follow Bush around, it’s hard to ignore the pattern. I have no doubt in my mind that Rove is behind these push-polls, but I also have no actual proof, other than circumstantial. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/11 "2005-07-24T16:45:03Z")
**even sven** , that would be cool, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/12 "2005-07-24T16:48:27Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > A few of the stories out their mention his potential ties to push-polling. In fact, [one of them](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1165126,00.html) mentions a similar push-polling incident that happened during the Bush gubernatorial campaign, which was also run by Rove. When such push-polling seems to follow Bush around, it’s hard to ignore the pattern. > > I have no doubt in my mind that Rove is behind these push-polls, but I also have no actual proof, other than circumstantial. The article says “Only circumstantial evidence links Rove to the push-polling. In fact, his fingerprints have not been found on any dirty tricks since his College Republican days.” That pretty much answers my question, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/13 "2005-07-24T19:18:52Z")
IF Karl Rove did such a thing, it’s despicable. IF. But John McCain should still be kicking himself for running such a dumb, self-destructive campaign. He can curse Rove all he wants, if he really believes that Rove pulled such a racist stunt, but the fact remains, McCain was his own worst enemy, and probably wouldn’t have won South Carolina (or any other Southern state) anyway. McCain is a guy who enjoys media attention, and relished being a media darling. As a result, he played to the media and continuallyu drifted leftward during a campaign to win the Republican nomination. Even a rank amateur at politics could have (and SHOULD have) told him that was a stupid strategy. No matter which party you belong to, you HAVE to appeal to the hard core zealots of your party during the primary season, and THEN start moving to the center AFTER you’ve sewn up the nomination. If you do anything else, you’re an idiot. John McCain was an idiot. He should have known that the very statements (attacking the religious right, for instance) that made him so popular on the press bus were things that would make him unelectable in Southern states he needed. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/14 "2005-07-24T20:26:03Z")
Rove did it. It is his signature. I saw the video of John McCain that was mentioned by Hentor, calling out Bush on it, and Bush didn’t even have the spine to look at him. There was a similar smear tactic when Bush was running against Ann Richardson (or is it Ann Richards?) for Texas governor. And, let’s not forget the Swiftboat factor in the last election. It’s the Al Capone effect. It happens every time Rove is around, but not when he isn’t around. The Plame Wilson affair is only the latest installment. You can tell when there is a skunk nearby, by the stink; you don’t have to actually see him. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/15 "2005-07-24T21:07:08Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > **even sven** , that would be cool, thanks. Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/16 "2005-07-24T22:03:11Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Rove did it. It is his signature. I saw the video of John McCain that was mentioned by Hentor, calling out Bush on it, and Bush didn’t even have the spine to look at him. There was a similar smear tactic when Bush was running against Ann Richardson (or is it Ann Richards?) for Texas governor. And, let’s not forget the Swiftboat factor in the last election. It’s the Al Capone effect. It happens every time Rove is around, but not when he isn’t around. The Plame Wilson affair is only the latest installment. You can tell when there is a skunk nearby, by the stink; you don’t have to actually see him. You have proof Rove was behind the Swift Boat Vets? Let’s not forget that McCain went on the support Bush against Kerry. That’s hard to understand if he genuinely thought Bush’s team was behind the push-poll campaign. And I’m amused at how shocked, _shocked_ , the Democrats claim to be over these push-polls. As if James Carville and other Dem strategists haven’t engaged in dirty politics over the years… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/17 "2005-07-24T22:29:25Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Let’s not forget that McCain went on the support Bush against Kerry. That’s hard to understand if he genuinely thought Bush’s team was behind the push-poll campaign. I don’t think such support is at all hard to understand. McCain doesn’t want his projects, committee assignments and all that kind of stuff to go down the drain. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/18 "2005-07-24T22:31:41Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > You have proof Rove was behind the Swift Boat Vets? > > Let’s not forget that McCain went on the support Bush against Kerry. That’s hard to understand if he genuinely thought Bush’s team was behind the push-poll campaign. > > And I’m amused at how shocked, _shocked_ , the Democrats claim to be over these push-polls. As if James Carville and other Dem strategists haven’t engaged in dirty politics over the years… :rolleyes: Oh, the Democrats aren’t clean either, not by a long shot. I remember a classic from the 60’s. LBJ was running against Goldwater. A pretty little girl in a field of flowers, singing some little tune. Then a big ass mushroom cloud. The unspoken message was LBJ respects life and loves America, and Goldwater is a warmonger and a killer who will destroy the world. LBJ won the election. Then he got us even deeper into the Vietnam quagmire than Goldwater would have. I have no clue why McCain continued to support Bush. If it had been me, I would have taken him down even if it meant the death of the party. I’m pretty vindictive when I get fired up. But Rove is an old hand at it. He tried his stuff under George HW Bush and got fired for it. That was about the only time anyone actually caught him. But, right now there is The Big Investigation going on the Plame matter. I’m hoping this one gets pinned on him. I really am. Again, these things only seem to happen with this frequency and this level of slime when The Rove is somewhere in the picture. Wherever Bush goes, Rove goes. Wherever Rove goes, this stuff happens. It’s happened too much to just be coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/19 "2005-07-24T22:43:55Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > And I’m amused at how shocked, _shocked_ , the Democrats claim to be over these push-polls. As if James Carville and other Dem strategists haven’t engaged in dirty politics over the years… :rolleyes: I opened this thread simply to ask about one incident, I neither said nor implied Democrats never did anything as bad or worse. Please take your _tu quoque_ hijack elsewhere. Start another thread, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915/20 "2005-07-24T23:15:50Z")
> [@](#): > > remember him talking about really wierd and biased mud-slinging survey involving racism, illigit kids and a polital candiadate somewhere far far away from California. **even sven** , McCain is a senator for Arizona. Not far, far away from California, but actually adjacent to it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roves-racist-push-poll-against-mcain-is-there-any-doubt-rove-did-it/313915.md?page=2)