# RT eats crow (re: Afghan war strategy) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2001, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388 "2001-11-20T14:19:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/21 "2001-11-20T21:33:39Z")
Thank yew, thank yew, one and all. ::bows:: While I’m coming clean, this isn’t the only thing I’ve been completely and totally wrong on, this fall. After all, just a few weeks back, I was still one of the more vocal [Schottenheimer detractors](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=90098). (That’s about football, for you non-sports-fans.) One of the plusses of being a pessimist is that when you’re right, you’re right, and when you’re wrong, it’s an occasion for rejoicing. Hard to beat that. 🙂 Oh, and **DDG**? Gotta agree with you about Cal Thomas. He has just barely enough brain cells to rub together, to make worse than no sense at all. The day the papers that run his column wise up to what a complete and total moron the man is, and stop printing his gibberish…if it ever happens, it should be made a national holiday. They could call it “Combatting Ignorance Day”. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/22 "2001-11-20T21:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Got to say, I’m very, very glad to be this wrong about the Administration’s war plans. > > So, could someone please pass the Tabasco? 😃 \*\* **RTF** , since I’m mostly a lurker in GD, you may or may not know that you and I disagree on a lot of stuff; That said, I always pay attention to what you write primarily because of the sort of honesty and class you’ve shown in this thread! Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/23 "2001-11-20T21:46:50Z")
I’d like to chime in here as say that **RTFirefly** has my admiration. Being able to recognize when you’re wrong, _before_ having your face rubbed in it, is a “Damned Good Show”. BZ, **RTF**. [sub]I’ve been a little cautious on this all too, but not nearly so much, and so at this point can claim no credit whatsoever[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/24 "2001-11-20T21:46:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > While I’m coming clean, this isn’t the only thing I’ve been completely and totally wrong on, this fall. After all, just a few weeks back, I was still one of the more vocal [Schottenheimer detractors](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=90098). (That’s about football, for you non-sports-fans.) Hmm. Perhaps I _do_ understand what elucidator was trying to say, for I don’t think Schottenheimer has led the team out of the woods, yet; and quite frankly, I think he was the one that led them _into_ the woods in the first place. So if what elucidator was trying to say was, “it ain’t over yet, so don’t apologize”, then I withdraw my confusion. And state that line regarding the 'Skins as well. ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/25 "2001-11-20T22:15:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > **Boy howdy, was I ever wrong.** Mr. Firefly, may I first point out that no one was predicting this even a few days a ago. (There seemed to be a very sharp turning point, when the Northern Alliance actually started attacking). But you are a big man to post what you did, and with an excellent attitude as well. I’ll take your que, (Q? queue?) and state openly that I had serious doubts about the plan to unseat the Taliban (what with all the talk of the endless mountain caves) but I am very glad to see the celebrations in Kabul. Please save a small piece of the wing, and pass the 'taters! [sub]elucidator is such a poopy head[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/26 "2001-11-20T22:16:53Z")
Jeez, I really hate to vivisect my own damn jokes. Under the circumstances of the time, **Arty** was right: the whole thing was fraught with peril. We got lucky! Couldn’t be more pleased. The punch line “history is wrong” see, is kinda like some guy who won’t admit it might say, sort of a parody? Still dont see anybody coming forth to claim the “Got It Right” prize. Tell you what, **goober** : you don’t gotta read another one, _egotist te absolvo_, go forth and sin no more. My name is right there at the top, there will be no quiz and nobody gives a shit. Peace on you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/27 "2001-11-20T22:24:57Z")
Sigh. Now I’m confused again. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/28 "2001-11-20T22:47:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tradesilicon \* > **I’ll take your que, (Q? queue?)** cue ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/29 "2001-11-20T22:59:43Z")
I was just continuing the trend from previous posts Stoid. But since I can’t spell worth a damn, than-cue. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/30 "2001-11-20T23:09:10Z")
¿Que? Good show, RTF. That OP took some chutzpah. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/31 "2001-11-21T00:10:24Z")
Somewhere in front of that wise, amiable exterior is a wheelbarrow, isn’t there, **RT**? To cart the doo-dads about, that is. I’m happier than a pig in poopy to see that things have worked out, but let’s not forget that the Taliban can re-solidify itself at virtually any time on their home turf, in spite of the current successes. And more importantly, there’s only one known al-Qaeda pheasant in the bag so far. This was the _easy_ part. And while we’re at it, allow me to take this opportunity to revoke my disdain for Washington Football, too. I was way, way more wrong than **RT** was on that one. And **elucidator** , I understand exactly where you’re coming from. It is only natural that you would underestimate the Americans, since you did such a fine job of hiding from them yourself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/32 "2001-11-21T00:50:05Z")
Gee, **Sof’** , I’m afraid that one got past me, defeated by parsing the syntax, ya know? Tell you what, I’ll just take your word for it, that its a scathing example of sardonic perception. and you can take my word for it, about how giving a rat’s ass I am. And the horse upon in which you rode. Now, those cordialities aside (so many swine, so few pearls…) does anybody got an nominees for SDMB Nostradamus? Anybody on record as seeing this coming? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/33 "2001-11-21T01:12:34Z")
Well, buddy, the ballots aren’t all counted yet, but I’d say that one candidate for a prognosticator would be [me, you asshole](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=91576&pagenumber=2). I said, > [@](#): > > The particulars are abhorrent, but we should not lose the lesson in the distasteful details. Overwhelming violence works, and it may be the only thing that works. We now have the ability to focus our overwhelming violence against the small number of people whom we seek, sparing most of those who are not closely associated with them. Yes, we should minimize collateral damage, but we should terminate our enemies with extreme, public, personal prejudice in a most fear-inspiring way. This is what war is, and we must show that we fight wars for keeps–and the losers lose badly. > > To do this, we need the support of the sane part of the world, of course. But we also need to teach the Islamic world, which may or may not meet my definition of sane, that when we are attacked, our enemies are not safe anywhere, and anyone who gives them solace is endangered. > > This is, in my opinion, the only way to reduce the viability of terrorism. Anything we do beyond this point is going to reinforce the hatred for America that the Islamic world already harbors unless we can make them respect us. The only way I can see to earn that respect is to hold forth the promise that engaging the United States will result in a radical reversal of fortune. Only then will the niceties of diplomacy and trade hold any weight. Do you remember what you said, dodger? > [@](#): > > **Sofa**. that would sound better in German. I’ll ride out now. Just remember that my horse fucked _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/34 "2001-11-21T01:34:11Z")
Although I’m sympathetic to the general tenor of elucidator’s original position (until he went totally off the rails and into la-la land), to wit: we shouldn’t start celebrating until we’re absolutely sure things are going as well as they seem to be, I want to observe that **Sofa King** just nailed him to the wall with a flaming speargun. _ **Ker-SLAM!** _ Nicely done, and based on the utter incomprehensibility of e’s last couple of posts above, well deserved. :tips hat: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/35 "2001-11-21T21:42:54Z")
**gobear** saith: > [@](#): > > The problems we have now are to 1) prevent the renewal of tribal feuds and warlord squabbles that allowed the Taliban in the first place, and 2) to cobble together a coalition Afghan government that will be acceptable to all ethnic groups. Actually, 1) I don’t give a rat’s posterior whether or not the Afghanis go back to killing each other for fun and profit, as long as they do not harbor those who kill my countrymen, and 2) there are no such thing. Provided we dismantle the terrorist training camps and string bin Laden and his ilk up by their unmentionable parts, I rest content with our efforts in Afghanistan. On to the other terrorists of the world, and a big No Thank You to nation building. Let the UN deal with that, if they are so smart. and countThoseImpressedWithRTsClass++ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/36 "2001-11-21T22:11:55Z")
**Shodan:** _I don’t give a rat’s posterior whether or not the Afghanis go back to killing each other for fun and profit, as long as they do not harbor those who kill my countrymen_ The last time we didn’t care about Afghan civil war, we got the Taliban reign of terror, the links with al-Qaeda, and the subsequent events. Maybe next time we should try caring about brokering a more peaceful and stable solution **before** the situation gets quite so toxic. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/37 "2001-11-21T22:27:20Z")
**Sofa King:** \*Overwhelming violence works, and it may be the only thing that works. We now have the ability to focus our overwhelming violence against the small number of people whom we seek, sparing most of those who are not closely associated with them. \* There is certainly some truth in this, but I’m not sure that the current Afghan situation is an example of it. Last I heard, the bombings had killed maybe 1500 Afghanis, of which fewer than 100 were solidly identified as al-Qaeda members. Most of that “small number of people whom we seek”, including the most-wanted bin Laden, are apparently still alive and well. _But we also need to teach the Islamic world, which may or may not meet my definition of sane, that when we are attacked, our enemies are not safe anywhere, and anyone who gives them solace is endangered._ Teaching that lesson will be useless, and even strongly counterproductive, unless we can also teach that (1) our enemies have no just cause to resent and attack us and (2) we do not attack those who are not our enemies. Otherwise, many people will feel it their duty to fight us, whatever the risk to themselves—and they have given ample evidence that risk will not necessarily deter them. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/38 "2001-11-21T22:30:25Z")
I would like to take this chance to eat my own words. I predicted this would be akin to the Pacific Theater in WWII, with US soldiers taking horrible losses in cave-hopping campaigns. I predicted a decades-long war with a constant erosion at our liberties, with groups like the ACLU becoming marginalized and, perhaps, banned by an increasingly paranoid and ultra-patriotic government. And I predicted that more planes would crash, this time in the Midwest and near airbases in the Southwest. I was wrong, and I’ve never been so happy about that. Kabul has fallen to our allies. Konduz has fallen to our allies. We are winning with a speed comparable to the Gulf War. And the Taliban, once believed to be a highly-motivated, extremely well dug-in fighting force on a par with the Imperial Japanese and the Viet Cong, has been proven to be, well, a bunch of pussies. Free Afghanistan in our time! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/39 "2001-11-21T22:40:06Z")
- I’d like to think this was the second time RT was completely wrong. _(He knows what I’m talking about, I’m sure.)_ 🙂 But classy of you to make this thread. - I was never doubting that the course the U.S. military was on in Afghanistan, if not perfect, was at least necessary. And I think this is further proof of the soundness of The Powell Doctrine, as practiced in the Gulf War - bomb your enemy to the point of insanity first, then troops. At that point, they’re surrendering to CNN crews. The military objectives the U.S. has accomplished over the last decade, with American soldier casualties numbering only into three digits, is amazing. (Knock on wood.) We still haven’t found and killed bin Laden yet, though. We still haven’t had a major round up of high-level al-Qaeda members. We are far from out of the woods. But it’s nice to see the despicable Taliban (with the exception of a city or two) squashed in Afghanistan. - I did some admonishing in GD of the people hand-wringing over how terribly the war was going because it had been four weeks and we weren’t having a ticker-tape parade in New York yet. So I will allow myself one or two pats on the back. - Those sights of the jubilation in liberated Afghan cities were quite a juxtaposition from what we saw for the previous month, weren’t they? If you went solely by the media up till then, you’d think all we were doing was slaughtering innocents. Even the UN presence in Afghanistan was acting like a propaganda wing for the Taliban. I couldn’t help but think, though, that were it not for the Taliban harboring OBL, they would likely still be oppressing those women and others, with little meaningful opposition from the West. That’s a scary and sad thought. - The ability of a couple of you to tortuously maneuver around giving the Bush Administration credit is positively laughable. Rock on, Dweezil and Moon Unit! - Programs! Get your programs early! Be the first ones in line to criticize the upcoming Iraq campaign! - The Redskins aren’t as good at being sucky as the Lions. HA! Take THAT! ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388/40 "2001-11-21T22:42:57Z")
I have no qualms at all with your observations, **Kimstu**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rt-eats-crow-re-afghan-war-strategy/94388.md?page=3)