# Rubbing Diogenes' Nose in Reality **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698 "2010-01-20T15:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![KLR\_650](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c4cdca/32.png) [@KLR\_650](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KLR_650)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/301 "2010-01-22T15:44:41Z")
Dear Marley, Why didn’t you have Chen or Pedant banned? Or me? If we are, as you claim, racists. Perhaps young man, and you are a young man, what you meant to say was, “I have reason to suspect that they, and you, may be racist.” My dear fellow, I’m not “hinting that Jews and Chinese are smart, and Blacks aren’t.” I don’t “hint.” At my age I don’t have time. I’m trying to STATE, as plainly as possible. Again, I’m referring to observable data having do to with SAT scores, for example. And earnings. And crime statistics. What percentage of Ashkenazi Jews have been in prison? Have defaulted on their student loans? Score below (insert low #) on their SAT? Earn income below the poverty level? European Whites (non-Jews) are to be found significantly (statistically) below both Jews and Chinese in these measures. And Blacks below Whites. These data are merely empirical. There is not debate about the observations themselves. For example, no one is saying, maybe Blacks are actually the wealthiest group in this country and the IRS is hiding that information. Maybe Blacks are scoring the highest on the SAT and the the College Board is covering it up. No, the DATA represent a reliable and consistent hierarchy: Jews, Chinese, Whites, Blacks. Certain other groups can be reliably placed on these measures. Hispanic Americans tend to group between Whites and Blacks, I believe. There is debate as to the CAUSE of these data. Some decent and reasonable people, for example you, argue that the causes must be entirely environmental. (I think that is your position, correct me.) Some decent and reasonable people, for example me, are engaged in the nurture vs nature debate. I really shouldn’t have to spell all this out, again. And if you still think that my failure to provide data for the Ainu proves something, well, maybe you’re quite a bit younger than I thought. The charge of racism is rather serious, and I’m growing tired of it. Did you know that a specious “racism” charge could result in EEO or other actions in certain workplaces? Being free and frequent with the “racist” smear devalues the word, when real racists need to be identified. My Black friends and colleagues would laugh at your calling me a racist, and they would immediately understand. They know I’m rather forthright. They and I can discuss racial matters, and joke and laugh about them, much more frankly than you and I. Actually, I have no doubt, or very little doubt, that if you and I were to meet over a coupla beers (which I have no intention of doing; I’m just saying) we would mutually discover that we are ordinary, decent, reasonable people. It can be a little difficult to assess people in a forum like this, especially when an old fart like me deliberately eschews PC speech-and-thought, just to see who gets their panties in a wad. And I admit that I do that. It gets the ball moving rather quickly. Alternatively: if it is your position that anyone who theorizes some “nature” in the nature vs nurture debate, is by definition a racist, then please say so. Sincerely, KLR ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/302 "2010-01-22T15:48:57Z")
> [@KLR\_650](#): > > \ > The charge of racism is rather serious, and I’m growing tired of it. Did you know that a specious “racism” charge could result in EEO or other actions in certain workplaces? Being free and frequent with the “racist” smear devalues the word, when real racists need to be identified.\ Yeah! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/303 "2010-01-22T15:52:03Z")
> [@KLR\_650](#): > > Dear Marley, > > Why didn’t you have Chen or Pedant banned? Or me? If we are, as you claim, racists. Perhaps young man, and you are a young man, what you meant to say was, “I have reason to suspect that they, and you, may be racist.” > > My dear fellow, I’m not “hinting that Jews and Chinese are smart, and Blacks aren’t.” I don’t “hint.” At my age I don’t have time. I’m trying to STATE, as plainly as possible. > > Again, I’m referring to observable data having do to with SAT scores, for example. And earnings. And crime statistics. What percentage of Ashkenazi Jews have been in prison? Have defaulted on their student loans? Score below (insert low #) on their SAT? Earn income below the poverty level? European Whites (non-Jews) are to be found significantly (statistically) below both Jews and Chinese in these measures. And Blacks below Whites. These data are merely empirical. There is not debate about the observations themselves. For example, no one is saying, maybe Blacks are actually the wealthiest group in this country and the IRS is hiding that information. Maybe Blacks are scoring the highest on the SAT and the the College Board is covering it up. No, the DATA represent a reliable and consistent hierarchy: Jews, Chinese, Whites, Blacks. Certain other groups can be reliably placed on these measures. Hispanic Americans tend to group between Whites and Blacks, I believe. > > There is debate as to the CAUSE of these data. Some decent and reasonable people, for example you, argue that the causes must be entirely environmental. (I think that is your position, correct me.) Some decent and reasonable people, for example me, are engaged in the nurture vs nature debate. > > I really shouldn’t have to spell all this out, again. And if you still think that my failure to provide data for the Ainu proves something, well, maybe you’re quite a bit younger than I thought. > > The charge of racism is rather serious, and I’m growing tired of it. Did you know that a specious “racism” charge could result in EEO or other actions in certain workplaces? Being free and frequent with the “racist” smear devalues the word, when real racists need to be identified. > > My Black friends and colleagues would laugh at your calling me a racist, and they would immediately understand. They know I’m rather forthright. They and I can discuss racial matters, and joke and laugh about them, much more frankly than you and I. > > Actually, I have no doubt, or very little doubt, that if you and I were to meet over a coupla beers (which I have no intention of doing; I’m just saying) we would mutually discover that we are ordinary, decent, reasonable people. > > It can be a little difficult to assess people in a forum like this, especially when an old fart like me deliberately eschews PC speech-and-thought, just to see who gets their panties in a wad. And I admit that I do that. It gets the ball moving rather quickly. > > Alternatively: if it is your position that anyone who theorizes some “nature” in the nature vs nurture debate, is by definition a racist, then please say so. > > Sincerely, > > KLR Fuck off, skinhead. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/304 "2010-01-22T15:59:02Z")
Meh. I could tolerate a lot of racism if it was a presented in a clever and entertaining way. This… isn’t. Now he’s just being racist _and_ sanctimonious. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/305 "2010-01-22T16:03:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Meh. I could tolerate a lot of racism if it was a presented in a clever and entertaining way. _Light skinned people of most Northern European descent power!_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/306 "2010-01-22T16:08:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t know about that. His touchingly naive attempts to actually _govern_ in bipartisan fashion rather than just talking about bipartisan government have turned off a lot of us. Obama gets, at a rough but educated estimate, 80-90% support on the SDMB. I expect he will get the same in 2012, no matter who the Republicans run. Hell, I bet he could be photographed raping a dead nun on the White House lawn and still poll over 50% on the SDMB. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/307 "2010-01-22T16:10:02Z")
He could raise her from the dead and still not get yours. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/308 "2010-01-22T16:13:51Z")
> [@KLR\_650](#): > > Why didn’t you have Chen or Pedant banned? Or me? If we are, as you claim, racists. Being a racist is not against the rules here, at least to my reading. (None of your arguments are new to this board.) If you want to voice your racist trash politely I expect you’ll be allowed to do so. If you’re going to make disparaging remarks about people due to their race, you’re not going to be here very long. That’s how it works for everybody. > [@](#): > > My dear fellow, I’m not “hinting that Jews and Chinese are smart, and Blacks aren’t.” I don’t “hint.” At my age I don’t have time. No, you’ve made your views on those groups clear. But you’re only hinting at the “UNIVERSALLY ACKNOWLEDGED racial hierarchy.” (I see you finally got around to posting one further down, so let’s go there) > [@](#): > > No, the DATA represent a reliable and consistent hierarchy: Jews, Chinese, Whites, Blacks. Certain other groups can be reliably placed on these measures. Hispanic Americans tend to group between Whites and Blacks, I believe. So: there is a universally acknowledged racial hierarchy, but you’re not sure where one enormous group goes, you separate Jews from whites (most people don’t do this anymore), and you’re unable to make any differentiation between the many groups of black people, you say nothing about indigenous peoples, and best of all, you seem to think all Asians are Chinese! Where did you get your doctorate again? > [@](#): > > The charge of racism is rather serious, and I’m growing tired of it. I’m sure you are. But you know what they say: if the [del]white sheet[/del] shoe fits… > [@](#): > > Did you know that a specious “racism” charge could result in EEO or other actions in certain workplaces? I’m not making any kind of charge, much less a specious one, to your employer. > [@](#): > > My Black friends and colleagues would laugh at your calling me a racist, and they would immediately understand. Do you tell them you rank ahead of them in the universally recognized racial hierachy[sup]TM[/sup]? What you’re saying is you don’t hate black people, you just think they are naturally inferior. And yes, that’s still racist. I’m familiar with people like you slicing and dicing the term this way, but I don’t buy it. > [@](#): > > Alternatively: if it is your position that anyone who theorizes some “nature” in the nature vs nurture debate, is by definition a racist, then please say so. I think anybody who believes there are qualitative differences between purported racial groups is a racist. That includes the people who hang their hats on science. They’re just a little bourgeios compared to the “niggers want to steal our women!” types. The idea that some races are naturally superior is not a new one. It’s been with us for at least a century (Lothrop Stoddard), maybe two. The terms change, the racial definitions change (which is a great indication the whole thing is crap, by the way - how can we have a racial hierarchy when we don’t know what the races are?), but the basics never do. Before there was “science” to support it, people held the same beliefs. Some of them justified it with the Bible. Bad science and bad scripture are both great tools to get whatever you want. You just have to know how to twist them properly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/309 "2010-01-22T16:16:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Obama gets, at a rough but educated estimate, 80-90% support on the SDMB. I expect he will get the same in 2012, no matter who the Republicans run. Support implies that people actively promote him and/or his policies. What you are saying is that people would choose him over the Republican candidate. Those are two entirely different concepts. There are lots of people on the SDMB who think Obama is great. There are lots of people on the SDMB who don’t think he’s great, but generally think he’s better than the alternative. There are lots of people on the SDMB who dislike him. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/310 "2010-01-22T16:21:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Obama gets, at a rough but educated estimate, 80-90% support on the SDMB. I expect he will get the same in 2012, no matter who the Republicans run. > > Hell, I bet he could be photographed raping a dead nun on the White House lawn and still poll over 50% on the SDMB. > > Regards, > Shodan Not no matter who the Republicans run. If they continue to trot out candidates who are too socially conservative and want to make/support laws based on that I will continue to vote against them even if the Dems put a ham sandwich and a side of pickle up for their ticket. Fiscally I agree with a lot of Republican ideas, but I cannot and will not vote for a candidate who wants to push their Christian moral agenda\* - - and I’m not even an atheist ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/311 "2010-01-22T16:24:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Support implies that people actively promote him and/or his policies. What you are saying is that people would choose him over the Republican candidate. Those are two entirely different concepts. QFT. One can dislike a candidate and still prefer him (or her) over the alternative. In 2004 I voted for the bumbling ineffectual Kerry over the actively malevolent Bush. Sometimes there are no good choices at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/312 "2010-01-22T16:28:05Z")
Were I American, I’d’a voted for Hillary Clinton in my state’s primary, and somewhat uncheerfully for Obama in the election. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/313 "2010-01-22T16:31:35Z")
Were I Canadian, I would drink a lot of beer and fuck a buncha Yankee politics. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/314 "2010-01-22T16:40:14Z")
> [@Klaatu](#): > > Yeah, well screw you and your redundant comma. Gaudere strikes again. 😛 I see no redundant comma in that sentence. > [@Shodan](#): > > Hell, I bet he could be photographed raping a dead nun on the White House lawn and still poll over 50% on the SDMB. It’s not rape if she can’t say no! ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/315 "2010-01-22T16:50:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Light skinned people of most Northern European descent power!_ Well, they did have to toil under the rule of the black nobility for centuries… ---
**Author:** ![KLR\_650](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c4cdca/32.png) [@KLR\_650](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KLR_650)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/316 "2010-01-22T17:08:34Z")
Dear Marley, So you are a very young man, indeed. Your views have a religious, not scientific, cast. It’s facile and convenient for you, and Al Gore, to announce that the debate is over. Rather than engage in it. The “debate” may be over (in this little forum), but scientific observations are ongoing. You will live several more decades (I trust), long enough to see more results from the Genome, and other projects. New data could produce new theories, right? Unless your conclusions are entirely “a priori,” in which case you are a believer, not a scientist. Sincerely, KLR P.S. Have you already ruled out the _possibility_ of new evidence which could suggest some role for “nature?” Would allowing that _possibility_ make you a RACIST, in this little forum? Alternatively, if you rule out a possibility “a priori,” you are a believer, not a scientist. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/317 "2010-01-22T17:10:57Z")
Watch out, he’s using italics _and_ capital letters! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/318 "2010-01-22T17:12:56Z")
Shit, sarcasm is next! Run away! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/319 "2010-01-22T17:21:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Support implies that people actively promote him and/or his policies. What you are saying is that people would choose him over the Republican candidate. Those are two entirely different concepts. “Support” in the sense of “vote for”. > [@](#): > > There are lots of people on the SDMB who think Obama is great. There are lots of people on the SDMB who don’t think he’s great, but generally think he’s better than the alternative. There are lots of people on the SDMB who dislike him. And the last group is outnumbered by either of the first two by at least five to one. No cite. > [@kidchameleon](#): > > Light skinned people of most Northern European descent power! > Well, they did have to toil under the rule of the black nobility for centuries… Stop that at once! Do you hear me? At once! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/320 "2010-01-22T17:30:50Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I see no redundant comma in that sentence. I was gonna protest, but continuing the theme of this thread, decided I didn’t \*actually \*care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698.md?page=17)