# Rubbing Diogenes' Nose in Reality **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698 "2010-01-20T15:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/381 "2010-01-25T03:54:29Z")
If anyone wants to see some more graceful losing from Dio, check out the [NFL conference championships](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=548967&page=4) thread ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/382 "2010-01-25T04:17:57Z")
Dio’s not having a good week ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/383 "2010-01-25T04:53:02Z")
Well, when you are the incarnation of everything that is dark and evil, you gotta expect people are gonna pick on you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/384 "2010-01-25T07:01:04Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Dio’s not having a good week Why, what happened to me? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/385 "2010-01-25T12:19:21Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I mean to say - yes, we have a massive spike in the deficit this year - but how much of it is a leftover result of Bushian policies, and the continuation of Bushian policies like Iraq/Afghanistan? How much of this new 1.7 trillion debt that’s blamed on the democrats was actually passed under Obama’s watch? [It’s a little hard to tell](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/15/karl-rove/rove-claims-obama-has-already-run-more-debt-bush-d/): > [@](#): > > For example, who takes the $133 billion hit for the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) spent in 2009? It was signed by Bush, but Reidl thinks Obama ought to shoulder some of that. Much of TARP’s losses are due to auto company bailouts and the home loan program initiated by Obama. And who gets credit for funding the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, or the $400 billion in reduced tax revenue because individual income and corporate profits have dropped due to the economic downturn? > [@](#): > > Axelrod argues that Obama also inherited Bush tax cuts and Medicare prescription drug expenses, which add about $200 billion a year to annual deficits (Axelrod called them “unwelcome gifts that keep on giving”). Riedl argues that kind of complaint may be valid in a president’s first year, but by a president’s second year, he needs to take ownership of programs he has inherited. If, for example, Obama thinks the prescription drug benefits in Medicare are unaffordable, he should try to repeal them, Riedl said. If he thinks the Bush tax cuts were wrong, try to roll them back. It’s hard to draw the line, but I think it’s fair to say that neither Bush nor Obama get a clean slate on this. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/386 "2010-01-25T14:30:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, when you are the incarnation of everything that is dark and evil, you gotta expect people are gonna pick on you. Apparently, Republicans think Obama is worse than [del]Hitler[/del] Clinton: > [@](#): > > Obama’s Approval Most Polarized for First-Year President > Average Difference Between Republic’s\* and Democrat’s Job Approval Rating of Presidents During First Year in Office: > > Eisenhower 32 > Kennedy 29 > Johnson 19 > Nixon 34 > Ford 28 > Carter 27 > Reagan 45 > GHW Bush 32 > Clinton 52 > GW Bush 45 > Obama 65 * * * \*This is an innocent typo ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/387 "2010-01-25T16:19:25Z")
> [@Evil\_One](#): > > I’m a social libertarian, so I don’t want someone trying to impose their views on me about what I can’t read on the internet and see on TV. I don’t give a shit about “stopping gay marraige” or “returning prayer to school”. The abortion genie is out of the bottle and isn’t going back. However, my fiscal and national security views are to the right. So in the lesser of two evils world, the Republicans win. Wait, so in a worst-case-scenario horror story, you’d rather have a nation where LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution, versus having a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/388 "2010-01-25T16:32:17Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Wait, so in a worst-case-scenario horror story, you’d rather have a nation where LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution, versus having a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you? :dubious: Wait, so your effort to invent a worst-case-scenario horror story for the Republican is an impressive: “LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution,” but your worst-case scenario for the Democrats is “a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you?” :dubious: That’s the BEST case for the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/389 "2010-01-25T16:35:27Z")
Democrats are social libertarians. The worst case social scenario for Democrats is that you’ll be able to smoke as much pot as you want while you’re shopping for baby clothes with your same-sex spouse. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/390 "2010-01-25T17:24:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wait, so your effort to invent a worst-case-scenario horror story for the Republican is an impressive: “LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution,” but your worst-case scenario for the Democrats is “a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you?” Well, what are fiscally conservative people scared that Democrats are going to do, that there’s actually any chance in hell they’d actually try to do? Tax the hell out of them and make a bunch of public programs. The worst horror stories (e.g., death panels) are completely made up, so I’m discounting them. Whereas there actually are socially conservative people who want to make being gay illegal, remove women’s access to birth control, and legislate their religion. Feel free to substitute your own horror story worst case, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/391 "2010-01-25T17:34:37Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Well, what are fiscally conservative people scared that Democrats are going to do, that there’s actually any chance in hell they’d actually try to do? Tax the hell out of them and make a bunch of public programs. The worst horror stories (e.g., death panels) are completely made up, so I’m discounting them. Whereas there actually are socially conservative people who want to make being gay illegal, remove women’s access to birth control, and legislate their religion. Sure. So the rule is, as long as there actually are people espousing the view, it’s fair game? > [@](#): > > Feel free to substitute your own horror story worst case, though. Well, here’s [an article from the UK](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1205138/The-chilling-truth-city-pay-people-die.html) that mentions a woman who’s suffering from terminal lung cancer and is told by the state-run medical facility that her treatment is too expensive given her poor prognosis, but she can get free lethal medication to end her own life. Shall I start there? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/392 "2010-01-25T17:37:25Z")
Anecdotal evidence does seem entirely appropriate, given the nature of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/393 "2010-01-25T18:00:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Wait, so in a worst-case-scenario horror story, you’d rather have a nation where LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution, versus having a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you? :dubious: I’m wondering why people insist on thinking that Republicans are the fiscally conservative ones. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/394 "2010-01-25T18:04:42Z")
Anecdotal evidence isn’t automatically invalid. If one person claims that something doesn’t exist, but another person provides (verified) anecdotal evidence that it does, they’ve made a valid point. As far as the point he was making - part of the big government nightmare scenario certainly does involve them making those sorts of decisions. Which isn’t even necesarily to say they’re bad - it’s a bit of a contradiction as I see it that conservatives are utterly offended if we don’t spend as much money as possible trying to save every life, no matter how much cost to improve how little lifespan, but the concept of basic and cheap care that would have significant impact for those that currently don’t have it is so taboo. I mean - right now, where that care comes from is part of the debate - but debating it purely in the hypothetical, they say they don’t want government involved because part of their nightmare scenario is that a most cost-conscious medical system might say “sorry, it’s not worth $10m to extend your (miserable) life for 6 month” but it’s par for the course for the current system to say “sorry, you can’t work for the rest of your life unless you can afford that $30,000 back surgery” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/395 "2010-01-25T18:06:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. So the rule is, as long as there actually are people espousing the view, it’s fair game? > > Well, here’s [an article from the UK](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1205138/The-chilling-truth-city-pay-people-die.html) that mentions a woman who’s suffering from terminal lung cancer and is told by the state-run medical facility that her treatment is too expensive given her poor prognosis, but she can get free lethal medication to end her own life. Shall I start there? An insurance company would do the same, only it wouldn’t offer her the courtesy of the the lethal medication. This was a woman who had six months to live. The treatment she wanted would not have saved her life (in fact, it DID not save her life, since she still got the treatment and died anyway). Do you think an HMO would have coughed up the money for expensive and futile end-of-life treatment? The editorial you linked to is also very one-sided and self-serving, by the way. It does not give any side of the story other than the woman’s family, and as a lawyer, you know good and well that you can’t just trust one side of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/396 "2010-01-25T18:08:01Z")
That’s because it’s in the _Daily Mail_, the Fox News of British newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/397 "2010-01-25T18:57:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, here’s [an article from the UK](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1205138/The-chilling-truth-city-pay-people-die.html) that mentions a woman who’s suffering from terminal lung cancer and is told by the state-run medical facility that her treatment is too expensive given her poor prognosis, but she can get free lethal medication to end her own life. Shall I start there? I would like to say that this anecdote is beneath you, **Bricker**. I’d like to say that, but lately… Anyway, do you seriously think that this anecdote is seriously a “horror story worst case scenario?” If so, I would assume that you believe that under your current system, it would be very common for a privately insured individual who is suffering from a terminal cancer to receive an expensive treatment that may or may not prolong her life as a cancer patient by an unknown amount of time. Is this what commonly happens in your system? How about for uninsured cancer patients that show up at a hospital? Are they given this particular treatment if their condition is terminal and their prognosis poor? Do you think? Otherwise, your “horror story”, is very, very weak indeed, and this line of argument is beneath you. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/398 "2010-01-25T18:58:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You want something to roll off your tongue? I got a couple things you can roll with your tongue. No, you don’t. Those shriveled up and dropped off the first time you voted for a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/399 "2010-01-25T19:02:17Z")
> [@Evil\_One](#): > > By american political standards, Obama is the furthest left a president has been since Carter. If this is true, then why are people who are actually on the left in America so disenchanted with Obama? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/400 "2010-01-25T19:05:22Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > No, you don’t. Those shriveled up and dropped off the first time you voted for a liberal. Yeah, my warts all cleared up too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698.md?page=21)