# Rubbing Diogenes' Nose in Reality **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698 "2010-01-20T15:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/401 "2010-01-25T19:05:42Z")
It’s not saying much to say that Obama is left of Reagan, Bush and Bush. If he’s left of Clinton, it’s marginal at best. He’s still not a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/402 "2010-01-25T19:47:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. So the rule is, as long as there actually are people espousing the view, it’s fair game? It’s fair game if you actually have people pushing it as a legislative agenda, and not scare tactics drummed up by the opposition. > [@](#): > > Shall I start there? People have already pointed out where it’s a terrible example. > [@Sinaptics](#): > > I’m wondering why people insist on thinking that Republicans are the fiscally conservative ones. Most of us don’t. But the person I was replying to gave their fiscal conservativism as the reason they chose Republicans as the lesser of two evils. So, **Evil One** , why \*do \*you consider Republicans to be fiscally conservative these days? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/403 "2010-01-25T21:49:21Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Wait, so in a worst-case-scenario horror story, you’d rather have a nation where LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution, versus having a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you? :dubious: Man, we’ve got to improve our security. SFG got hold of our secret memo -LGBT incarcerated: All of them? How long? Separate or mixed facilites? Well, the prison-building will kick-start the economy, that’s for sure. -NO birth control of any kind: Not even Billings? “Lady, step away from that cervical mucus” -Ten Commandemnts: What artciles would it ammend? Protestant or Catholic version? Are all the commandments on big ammendement? One per tablet? Or would it be ten ammendement? Because that would be hell to pass even with the rubes, sheeple and Sarah Palin. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/404 "2010-01-25T21:59:34Z")
Before the Texas sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional just a few yars ago, there actually were some prominent conservatives arguing to preserve the criminalization of homosexual sex in itself. Senator Rick “Man on dog” Santorum is an infamous example. What exactly the sentencing guidelines were, I don’t know, but the criminalization wasn’t theoretical, it was real, and existed in many states within only the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/405 "2010-01-25T22:12:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Before the Texas sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional just a few yars ago, there actually were some prominent conservatives arguing to preserve the criminalization of homosexual sex in itself. Senator Rick “Man on dog” Santorum is an infamous example. What exactly the sentencing guidelines were, I don’t know, but the criminalization wasn’t theoretical, it was real, and existed in many states within only the last few years. How many people were incarcerated? Let’s say 1980-2000? Also, how many (important, relevant) people have actually said something even remoterly like “let’s put LGBTs in prison” recently? ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/406 "2010-01-25T22:17:51Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > How many people were incarcerated? Let’s say 1980-2000? > Also, how many (important, relevant) people have actually said something even remoterly like “let’s put LGBTs in prison” recently? I assume you mean other than Ugandan politicians? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/407 "2010-01-25T22:25:29Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > I assume you mean other than Ugandan politicians? Thanks for the completely useless bit of information. Do you know that “yaku” means “water” in Quechua? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/408 "2010-01-25T22:33:00Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Thanks for the completely useless bit of information. > Do you know that “yaku” means “water” in Quechua? Couldn’t you have at least told us what beer was? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/409 "2010-01-25T22:44:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > How many people were incarcerated? Let’s say 1980-2000? > Also, how many (important, relevant) people have actually said something even remoterly like “let’s put LGBTs in prison” recently? We’re not talking about what _actually happened_ or even what’s _likely to happen_–we’re talking about _worst-case scenerio horror stories_. What would happen if the wingiest of the wingy had their druthers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/410 "2010-01-25T22:48:43Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > How many people were incarcerated? Well, the two people who were arrested and jailed in the _Lawrence_ case, for a start. The police literally broke into their home, arrested and them for having consensual sex in their own apartment, and taken to jail. How many people are sufficient? What’s relevant isthat this was a law and an action largely supported the American political right, including some of its most prominent members. > [@](#): > > Also, how many (important, relevant) people have actually said something even remoterly like “let’s put LGBTs in prison” recently? I just named one. What do you mean by “recently?” The _Lawrence_ case came before the Supreme Court in 2003. I already mention Santorum as one who defended the sodomy laws. You can also add Antonin Scalia, William Renquist and Clarence Thomas to that list. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/411 "2010-01-26T00:38:26Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > How many people were incarcerated? Let’s say 1980-2000? It’s more or less impossible to tell because homosexual sex acts were almost invariably criminalized under generalized terms like _sodomy_ or _crimes against nature_. For example, the individuals in the well-known Bowers v. Hardwick ruling were charged under the Georgia sodomy statute, which criminalized oral or anal sex (including between members of opposite sexes). Similarly, Article 125 of the UCMJ: > [@](#): > > 1. ART. 125. SODOMY > > (a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration , however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense. > > (b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall be punished as a court-martial may direct. Note that the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces found that Lawrence v. Texas invalidated Article 125 as it relates to homosexual conduct. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/412 "2010-01-26T00:44:44Z")
“…carnal copulation…”? There’s another kind of copulation? Now they tell me! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/413 "2010-01-26T01:03:34Z")
Yes, but it involves two cops, and is best not discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/414 "2010-01-26T07:47:07Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Couldn’t you have at least told us what beer was? Aqha is the word for fermented drinks. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > We’re not talking about what _actually happened_ or even what’s _likely to happen_–we’re talking about _worst-case scenerio horror stories_. What would happen if the wingiest of the wingy had their druthers. If we’re talking about nuttiest 1% of the nuttiest 1%, I agree. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well, the two people who were arrested and jailed in the _Lawrence_ case, for a start. The police literally broke into their home, arrested and them for having consensual sex in their own apartment, and taken to jail. How many people are sufficient? What’s relevant isthat this was a law and an action largely supported the American political right, including some of its most prominent members. > > I just named one. What do you mean by “recently?” The _Lawrence_ case came before the Supreme Court in 2003. I already mention Santorum as one who defended the sodomy laws. You can also add Antonin Scalia, William Renquist and Clarence Thomas to that list. Okay, that’s two. The police followed the (stupid) law. The dissent in Lawrence is not against homosexuality per se. It’s about stare decisis, the contradictions of the court regarding homosexuality as a fundamental right, etc; it wasn’t about imprisoning gays. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s more or less impossible to tell because homosexual sex acts were almost invariably criminalized under generalized terms like _sodomy_ or _crimes against nature_. > > For example, the individuals in the well-known Bowers v. Hardwick ruling were charged under the Georgia sodomy statute, which criminalized oral or anal sex (including between members of opposite sexes). > > Similarly, Article 125 of the UCMJ: > > Note that the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces found that Lawrence v. Texas invalidated Article 125 as it relates to homosexual conduct. So both the GA and the UCMJ rules apply both the hetero and homosexual activities. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/415 "2010-01-26T13:07:24Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Okay, that’s two. The police followed the (stupid) law. Perhaps not even those two - [a journalist/judge who investigated the case](http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/oct/05102407.html) concluded that they set themselves up deliberately to get arrested as a test case. Hard to argue that your rights are being violated if you volunteer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/416 "2010-01-26T13:27:06Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > No, you don’t. Those shriveled up and dropped off the first time you voted for a liberal. I’m not sure why people think that the liberals have no balls, given that it’s the right-wingers that are so afraid of everything - terrorists, socialism, people with the middle name Hussein, healthcare, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/417 "2010-01-26T13:55:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Otherwise, your “horror story”, is very, very weak indeed, and this line of argument is beneath you. Please re-read what led to this: > [@](#): > > Wait, so your effort to invent a worst-case-scenario horror story for the Republican is an impressive: “LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution,” but your worst-case scenario for the Democrats is “a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you?” My intent was not to offer that story as any kind of a real-world possiblity. My intent was to point out **Shot From Guns** ’s disparate “worst case scenarios” when applied to Democrats and Republicans. His “worst case” for Republicans was LGBT people are incarcerated, women have no access to birth control of any kind, and the Ten Commandments are firmly ensconced in our Constitution. And his worst case for Democrats was “a significant part of your income involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you.” Surely you’ll concede that those are not both fair representations of “worst case scenario” no matter how you care to define the term. It’s either easy of the Dem or hard on the Pubs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/418 "2010-01-26T13:56:51Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > We’re not talking about what _actually happened_ or even what’s _likely to happen_–we’re talking about _worst-case scenerio horror stories_. What would happen if the wingiest of the wingy had their druthers. And you believe that if the wingiest of the wingy on the Left had their way, the worst thing that would happen is that a significant part of your income would be involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/419 "2010-01-26T14:00:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Perhaps not even those two - [a journalist/judge who investigated the case](http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/oct/05102407.html) concluded that they set themselves up deliberately to get arrested as a test case. > > Hard to argue that your rights are being violated if you volunteer. Here I will disagree. If the law exists, then to challenge it, you need someone with standing. That particular instance may have been volunteers, but as long as the law existed, it gave police the power to arrest (or investigate) acts that shouldn’t be crimes. If you wish to engage in some act that is on the books as a crime, but shouldn’t be a crime because it’s conduct protected by the Constitution, then your rights ARE being violated. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698/420 "2010-01-26T14:04:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And you believe that if the wingiest of the wingy on the Left had their way, the worst thing that would happen is that a significant part of your income would be involuntarily diverted to social programs, some of which may benefit you? Well, just out of curiosity, what _is_ the worst that could happen? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubbing-diogenes-nose-in-reality/525698.md?page=22)