# Rubio won't back his own immigration bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242 "2013-06-05T21:24:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/121 "2013-06-11T11:57:28Z")
If educational outcomes were on a par with other groups after a few generations that would perhaps make it slightly more understandable, but that isn’t the case. > **[Raising Latino Achievement Seen as 'Demographic Imperative'](https://www.edweek.org/leadership/raising-latino-achievement-seen-as-demographic-imperative/2012/06)** > > By 2020, one in every four U.S. schoolchildren will be Latino; their success is key to the nation's economic prosperity. So, I understand there are strong emotional and ethnocentric reasons for supporting entry from ones ethnic group: hence strong Hispanic support for more of their own. From a neutral standpoint it is likely to result in lower per-capita income and educational outcomes in the US. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/122 "2013-06-11T14:00:45Z")
Bernie Sanders is expressing serious concerns about the bill’s effect on American workers: > **[U.S. Senate: Request not Accepted - Security Risk Detected](https://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/general/one_item_and_teasers/waf.htm)** > > Request not Accepted - Security Risk Detected ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/123 "2013-06-11T14:11:56Z")
Please, if there is even one that is more discredited for following crackpots it is Chen019. As usual when good sources are referred to (no cite BTW, this shows that the good cite was misinterpreted by a crackpot sources and in this case quick searchers show that this is the case, the extreme numbers are cited by racist places that forget to report the whole picture.) [http://www.cato.org/publications/free-trade-bulletin/fiscal-impact-immigration-reform-real-story](http://www.cato.org/publications/free-trade-bulletin/fiscal-impact-immigration-reform-real-story) > [@](#): > > What is less often considered is that the NRC study also measured the fiscal impact of the descendants of immigrants. That gives a much more accurate picture of the fiscal impact of low-skilled immigrants. It would be misleading, for example, to count the costs of educating the children of an immigrant without considering the future taxes paid by the educated children once they have grown and entered the workforce. The children of immigrants typically outperform their parents in terms of educational achievement and income. As a result, the NRC calculated that the descendants of a typical lowskilled immigrant have a positive $76,000 fiscal impact, reducing the net present value of the fiscal impact of a lowskilled immigrant and descendants to $13,000.5 > > Even that figure does not give the full picture. As the NRC study was being written, Congress passed the 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, otherwise know as the 1996 Welfare Reform Act. The act contains an entire title devoted to restricting immigrant access to means-tested welfare, limiting access of noncitizens to such public benefit programs as food stamps and Medicaid. When the NRC study accounted for the impact of the 1996 Welfare Reform Act, the fiscal impact of a single low-skilled immigrant and descendants was further reduced to $5,000 in terms of net present value.6 > > If we accept the NRC estimates, then allowing an additional 400,000 low-skilled immigrants to enter the United States each year would have a one-time NPV impact on federal taxpayers of $2 billion. That cost, while not trivial, would need to be compared to the efficiency gains to the U.S. economy from a larger and more diverse supply of workers and a wider range of more affordable goods and services for native-born Americans. In a post-September 11 security environment, comprehensive immigration reform could also reduce federal spending now dedicated to apprehending illegal economic immigrants. So yes, future historians, and that includes me BTW, will have to report on the alarmism coming from the crackpots that only report on half of studies so as to get the “right” information and distorted to others. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/124 "2013-06-11T14:22:04Z")
This forum is for politics. The scientific racism stuff goes in GD. Or Stormfront. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/125 "2013-06-11T14:26:38Z")
As for the other cite, once again more misrepresentation by looking only at the problem and not at what the experts are saying the reasons are and what is happening. > [@](#): > > On some indicators, however, such as participation in Advanced Placement exams and scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP, Latinos have made more progress toward closing the gap with their white peers than African-American students have. > [@](#): > > Assumptions that most Latinos in public schools are immigrants who speak English poorly and are unfairly draining resources from native-born students represent a widespread misunderstanding of the population and have helped drive, to some extent, the passage of tough immigration laws such as Alabama’s, which, before it was put on hold by a federal appeals court, required public schools to check the legal status of students before enrolling them. > [@](#): > > And some sectors of the Latino population—for example, the Cuban-immigrant and Cuban-American community in South Florida—have more social capital, such as older generations of adults with higher educational attainment and political clout, to draw on. That explains, in part, the success that the Miami-Dade County school system has had in raising graduation rates for its Hispanic students, who are largely of Cuban origin or heritage. > > But Miami educators also say their success is due to their embrace of their students’ heritages and the wide range of English-learning options they provide for students of all proficiency levels. Of course, one can count on the Republicans on making sure there is no improvement for other Hispanics. > [@](#): > > Assumptions that most Latinos in public schools are immigrants who speak English poorly and are unfairly draining resources from native-born students represent a widespread misunderstanding of the population and have helped drive, to some extent, the passage of tough immigration laws such as Alabama’s, which, before it was put on hold by a federal appeals court, required public schools to check the legal status of students before enrolling them. > > Laws like Alabama’s, many educators and advocates say, can have a broad, negative impact on Hispanic children regardless of their legal status and a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that children who are in the country illegally are still entitled to a free K-12 public education. > > In the small, rural community of Foley, Ala., for example, educators at the local elementary school are expecting retention rates for Hispanic kindergartners and 1st graders to quadruple recent levels, a direct result, they argue, of the state’s crackdown on undocumented immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/126 "2013-06-11T14:36:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This forum is for politics. The scientific racism stuff goes in GD. Or Stormfront. I have found that many times it is racist sources that get a hold of good reports and cherry pick or misinterpret the hell out of them, and then readers of the crackpots copy and paste the results; as I see, it racism is at the bottom a virulent form of ignorance and one should see the ones going for the misinterpretations as pushers of crackpotery like the tax evaders have it with gold fringes around the American flag. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/127 "2013-06-11T14:42:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Bernie Sanders is expressing serious concerns about the bill’s effect on American workers: > > [http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=97C03766-F4D8-4284-A87E-251229782024](http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=97C03766-F4D8-4284-A87E-251229782024) > [@](#): > > Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today congratulated the Senate Judiciary Committee for drafting an immigration reform bill that would provide a path to citizenship for 11 million immigrants in the United States and help their children become citizens. His concerns are also the ones mentioned before, and mostly dealing with the future immigration and just demanding rules so employers do not abuse the changes. So, concern noted, but the support for the bill is still there. Here is a tip though, stop relying on third parties telling you what reports and documents are actually saying, you do not want to end up like Chen019. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/128 "2013-06-13T18:21:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s the loophole. Being enrolled in English classes does not demonstrate proficiency in English anymore than enrolling in medical school makes me a doctor. Who gives a shit if Miguel can’t speak english and its annoying to be standing behind him in line? American has no, nor should it ever, official language. I would rather they take the language part out ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/129 "2013-06-13T18:35:01Z")
Because countries balkanized by language differences are never in harmony. Not even Canada, and certainly not Belgium. You can have a nation of many religions, many races, many ideologies, but one thing you cannot have is a nation of many languages. There has to be a common tongue, and English is our Common. Which is beside the point. Politically you can’t sell the public an immigration reform bill without pro-assimilation measures like English proficiency. We’re already having serious problems with assimilation it’s part of what’s broken about our system. So that, too, has to be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/130 "2013-06-13T18:58:22Z")
Balkanized like Switzerland, say? Of course, India and China each have even more languages than Switzerland, but I suppose you would argue that they don’t count for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/131 "2013-06-13T20:04:36Z")
I don’t think adaher is taking any evidence that contradicts him in mind. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/132 "2013-06-13T20:20:59Z")
Taking my cue from Chris Rock, the first thing we should do to encourage assimilation is to change the name of San Diego to Gus Johnson. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/133 "2013-06-13T20:55:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Because countries balkanized by language differences are never in harmony. Not even Canada, and certainly not Belgium. Oh well, deal with it. I find it funny that for conservatives, any freedom of theirs is too precious to touch but freedom for others? Oh yeah, touch them! Well, not funny, just pathetically common nowadays. As a conservative or a libertarian, your response to the language question SHOULD be: so what? If America is divided, so what? If people don’t get along, so what? If immigrants never identify as Americans over their native origins, so what? The right to speak the language you want overrides all of that. Tell me, if someone said you had to learn another language to live “freely” someplace else, would you think that’s free? No immigrant should be forced to learn a language as a condition of becoming a citizen. If shit happens, here’s an idea, LET IT HAPPEN ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/134 "2013-06-14T02:55:26Z")
So exactly where in the Constitution is the federal government given the power to set an official “national language”? I must have missed that part… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/135 "2013-06-14T03:34:38Z")
There is no official US language, although under liberal interpretations of the commerce clause, the government actually could establish a national language. Thank God for conservative justices who limited the commerce power, huh? Anyway, no, there’s no official US language, but the Constitution was written in English and all immigrants must understand it to become citizens. Plus, as has been pointed out, English is our common tongue and last I checked, the public was never consulted on us converting into a binational state like Canada. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/136 "2013-06-14T04:15:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is no official US language, although under liberal interpretations of the commerce clause, the government actually could establish a national language. Thank God for conservative justices who limited the commerce power, huh? > > Anyway, no, there’s no official US language, but the Constitution was written in English and all immigrants must understand it to become citizens. Plus, as has been pointed out, English is our common tongue and last I checked, the public was never consulted on us converting into a binational state like Canada. Let’s see, you acknowledge there is no official language, but argue it still should be learned even though there’s no legal or moral reason to, because a document written 200 years ago used that language, then claim we’re a binational state (still, I assume, knowing that you just said there’s no official language and therefore its impossible to be binational [and assuming you meant bilingual]) and are upset because somehow the public needs to be consulted on this, even though they vote for the people who set the laws and, last time I checked, no laws on either language or binationalism has ever been passed. What is your argument again? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/137 "2013-06-14T04:23:35Z")
That’s alright adaher, businesses do not stop just to consider your problems with Spanish. > **[HispanicTrending: Hispanic Marketing & Advertising](https://www.hispanictrending.net/hispanic_marketing_advertising/)** > > Hispanic - Latino Marketing , Advertising & Business Trends , News , Research , Commentaries , Consulting , Strategies > [@](#): > > While this may be a new revelation for some, others have already tapped into this segment and are getting ahead of the competition. BMW for example has partnered with the United States Hispanic Chamber of Commerce (USHCC), while Visa Inc. has also launched a Small Business Alliance to help strengthen and grow the three million Hispanic-owned businesses that USHCC advocates. > > Gucci Timepieces & Jewelry has also demonstrated its commitment as an official partner of The Latin Recording Academy. The partnership began last year with the launch of a special-edition collection of timepieces and jewelry inspired by the eclectic world of Latin music. Gucci Timepieces & Jewelry has recognized the nominees in the Best New Artist category with a special-edition I-Gucci Latin GRAMMY watch and presented the 2012 Latin Recording Academy Person of the Year, Brazil’s Caetano Veloso, with a custom I-Gucci Latin GRAMMY watch set with 42 diamonds. > > Most recently, luxury brand Ralph Lauren, which already features a Latino as their worldwide ambassador – Nacho Figueras – has launched a targeted effort elevating the awareness and equity of Ralph Lauren Fragrances amongst Latinos. > > With national Spanish television advertising, print advertising on magazines such as Vanidades, People en Español and Latina, partnerships with retailers like Macy’s, Hispanic celebrity gifting and participation in exclusive premium Hispanic events, Ralph Lauren Fragrances is demonstrating its commitment through an integrated approach. And it is not only there were Spanish will get more prevalent, IIRC xenophobic places like Arizona are shooting themselves in the foot as more Latin American business will go to other states as the local Hispanics are being discouraged from learning the language of their parents. That is leading a state into being less able to do business in areas that are growing. IMHO fearing bilingualism is really silly. [http://nbclatino.com/2012/09/27/education-nation-the-real-benefits-of-being-bilingual/](http://nbclatino.com/2012/09/27/education-nation-the-real-benefits-of-being-bilingual/) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/138 "2013-06-14T04:26:31Z")
No one fears bilingualism, as in people speaking more than one language. What is to be feared, based on the experience of every country in the world, is people living together and not understanding one another. Balkanization never works out. But anyway, Yogosouth, I see your point on the merits of the POLICY, but on the politics, learning English is a must if Americans are to support legalization and eventual citizenship. Don’t require it, and support for the bill evaporates. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/139 "2013-06-14T04:34:56Z")
I remember a minor enlightenment over a prejudice I didn’t even know I had. Cheech Marin, movie called _Born in East L.A._. The set up is his Mom, asking him to go the border crossing and meet his cousin who is coming to the U.S. And Cheech’s character complains “Aw, Ma, you know my Spanish isn’t any good!”. My surprise surprised me, I found myself wondering why I was surprised that Cheech, child of a Mom who’s first language was Spanish didn’t speak Spanish himself. Well, why would he, born in East L.A.? Remember Michael in _Godfather_? Remember him speaking Sicilian with Solozzo, becoming frustrated with his lack of fluency, and switching to English? Don’t worry about assimilation, it takes care of itself, the kids are all right. Has anyone ever met a second generation Chinese, Japanese, Hispanic, or Martian who didn’t speak perfectly ordinary American English? They will melt into the pot just like all the rest, but the pot they melt into will be slightly less bland that it was before. That’s goldurn _bueno_, far as I can see. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242/140 "2013-06-14T04:38:59Z")
I agree, the second generation tends to assimilate just fine. But if that first generation wants citizenship, they have to pass that exam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rubio-wont-back-his-own-immigration-bill/660242.md?page=8)