# Rude/Obscene Gestures **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2001, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459 "2001-06-20T12:37:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/1 "2001-06-20T12:37:08Z")
I was thinking about rude/insulting gestures the other day (don’t ask why) and wondering how they originated. Some are obvious (the US one-fingered salute), others are not so obvious (the UK two-finger equivalent) but the debate around thier origin is well-documented. But the one that held my attention this time around was the gesture for stupidity that involves sticking your bottom lip out by placing your tongue over your bottom teeth and behind your lip and then opening and shuting your mouth making “nun-nun-nun” noises. Anyone know how this developed and what is is intended to signify? Or is this a local gesture only (I was born in South Africa and am living in the UK)? Thanking you in anticipation of your speedy responses 🙂 Gp ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/2 "2001-06-20T12:41:51Z")
I believe it’s intended to represent the facial appearance and speech of somebody with a severe learning disability. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/3 "2001-06-20T12:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TomH \* > \*\*I believe it’s intended to represent the facial appearance and speech of somebody with a severe learning disability. \*\* What kind of disability? Gp ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/4 "2001-06-20T13:02:32Z")
Desmond Morris, a zoologist turned anthropologist/sociologist/etc. and the guy who wrote the book “The Naked Ape” wrote a huge catalog of human gestures around the world and their probable origins. This guy is absolutely fascinating. He also produced that series, “The Human Animal” which shows on Discovery every now and then. Anyway, Amazon will have this book, though i think it’s out of print - just search his name and you’ll get 10 or so books. As and aside, I highly recommend “The Human Zoo” and “The Naked Ape” though the latter is a little dated. ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/5 "2001-06-20T13:21:18Z")
I don’t think it’s intended to mimic any _particular_ learning disability. Rather, it’s a generalised and stereotyped portraytal of the way people with learning disabilities (e.g. Down’s syndrome) are popularly thought to appear and behave. > [@](#): > > Desmond Morris … wrote a huge catalog of human gestures around the world and their probable origins. Most of which he made up out of the whole cloth. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/6 "2001-06-20T13:59:06Z")
I’d be interested to know what you know about Desmond. Where did you find that he made it up. I’ve always thought he did good research. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/7 "2001-06-20T16:47:57Z")
What about putting your hand under your chin and then flinging it out? What exactly does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2001, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/8 "2001-06-20T21:18:25Z")
KC, I don’t know anything particular about Morris, but I read _The Naked Ape_ and _Manwatching_ several years ago and they are full of arguments along the followig lines: 1. People make gesture X. 2. Gesture X superficially resembles something that apes/horses/cats/wallabies do. 3. Gesture X is the result of some great folk memory of when we were apes/horses/cats/wallabies. That’s all. I don’t doubt that he has done some good zoological research, but his popular sociological/anthropological stuff seems to be mostly speculative. ---
**Author:** ![MrWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9f8e36/32.png) [@MrWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrWhy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/9 "2001-06-21T05:53:49Z")
I always thought the gesture described in the OP was simply supposed to make one look like a lower primate and hence, less than human. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/10 "2001-06-21T05:58:36Z")
One effect of Autosomal Trisomy 21 (Downs Syndrome) is an enlarged tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/11 "2001-06-21T06:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*What about putting your hand under your chin and then flinging it out? What exactly does that mean? > \*\* I believe this gesture indicates that the recipient should wipe your semen off of their chin as it is beginning to drip. My favorite is the ancient Calabrian death gesture. Hold the hand upright with the ring and middle finger held down by placing your thumb across them. Raise both your index and little finger upright. Presto, the horns of the Devil. As in; “Go to Hell!” If people think that I’m flipping them off twice at the same time, so much the better. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rude-obscene-gestures/69459/12 "2001-06-21T07:03:37Z")
I like the one my Vietnamese friends taught me. Hook the nail of your index finger under the tip of your middle finger, and then pull back on your middle finger. This can be a bit tricky if you haven’t done it before, so you might have to manually position your fingers with your other hand (which doesn’t look so cool). Then hold these two fingers up to the other person. The result of all this is supposed to represent female genitalia. I like this idea, as it is more passive than the one fingered salute, and therefore more dismissive and contemptuous of the victim.