What about Dr. Goebbels?
Indeed, he was no true Scotsman, er, intellectual.
People still alive, or their children or grandchildren? After all, we are possibly talking about the peerage, dear boy
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Some nations feel that America’s short memory is a fault, not a virtue. For other countries, history is alive and not something that gets disregarded every generation.
[QUOTE=Koxinga]
What about Dr. Goebbels?
Yeah, I mean how intellectual do you have to be to order a mass book burning and have your 6 kids killed
Being insane does not rule out the idea of one also being quite smart.
If nothing else, history is full of madmen that also were quite intelligent.
He did have a Doctorate of Literature from Heidelberg.
Other leading Nazis with advanced degrees were Rosenberg, who had a Doctorate of Engineering from Moscow University, Schacht, who had a Doctorate in Economics from Harvard, and Frank, who was a lawyer.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I’ll note that it was a Australian who wrote that.
At least, the parts the other countries remember.
To add to the pile-on: I’ll also note that the living history thing works real well in places like North Ireland and the Balkans.
Well, I never said it was always a *good * thing. The Balkans were the example I had in mind, where villages were wiped out within the past couple of decades in response to something that happened five hundred years earlier.
But, my statements were in response to the question of “But who cares who was collobarating now?” It is a very American attitude towards history to not care about something which happened within living memory.
Vhen Herr Goebbels says “You’ll never take this place”, ve Heil! (brzzz) Hei! (brzzzz) right in Herr Goebbels’ face.
That’s what.
Unfortunately, there probably is no factually possible answer forthcoming. But some damned interesting speculation. Moving this to IMHO so the merriment can continue. Thanks to all who tried to propose serious answers in GQ.
samclem GQ moderator
There were some people in the UK who had been inclined towards Germany before the war. They figured Hitler was anti-communist and they were willing to overlook the anti-semitism. Pretty much all of them turned their opinions against Germany once the war began.
But the Nazis, as I said above, didn’t always see reality as it was. They figured that there was still a lot of silent pro-German sympathy in the UK. They figured if they could just get the anti-German people like Churchill out of the way, the pro-German Britons would be able to take over and adopt a more “reasonable” attitude towards Germany.
The Duke of Hamilton had been one of the people who sympathized with Germany before the war. Hess figured he was still a friend of Germany. And he figured a Duke would have access to important people in the British government. Hess’ plan was to land on the Duke’s estate, meet the Duke in secret, immediately gain his support, and then arrange to meet other pro-German figures in the British government to arrange a peace treaty.
What happened was that as soon as the Duke realized who Hess was, he called up the authorities and had him arrested.
Hitler really did want a peace treaty with the UK, albeit on his terms. The idea that Hess would succeed in negotiating such a treaty was crazy. But if he had somehow managed it, Hitler probably would have actually been pleased. So Hess’ belief that Hitler would back him if he succeeded was probably the least irrational part of his whole plan.
Things weren’t going all that well for the United Kingdom in the spring of 1941. There were plenty of people who figured there was no chance of beating Germany and they should just face the facts and accept the idea that Germany now ruled Europe. So Churchill and the British government didn’t want to admit that there had been a peace feeler from Germany (even one as tenuous as Hess’ flight) because they were worried that public opinion might turn against them and insist on negotiating an end to the war, even if it was on German terms.
Y’know, I characteized Himmler as an intellectual. Actually, I should have said bureaucrat. Double-checking, I may have confused him with some other Nazi lunatic. Regardless, one scary dude. I think the most frightening bit is that he on some level knew he was doing a horrifically wrong thing and just plain did it anyway. That just kind of blows me away.
Kaltenbrunner, Heydrich and Streicher were the ones who I thought were real monsters.
In response to Little Nemo, I meant why has it been necessary to keep Hess’ mission secret for 66 years? If it was a peace overture, the Allied victory would have vindicated the refusal to accept it- along with the discovery of the death camps.
You don’t know the half of it (or maybe you do). Take a gander at Himmler’s Posen speech, for example.
Yet he was supposed to not be as keen on extermination as Heydrich.
I have always thought that Goering would be an interesting subject for a biopic. From what I’ve read about him, I don’t know if “brutal” would be the right word to describe him. He certainly wasn’t as vehemently anti-Semitic as guys like Himmler and Goebbels, nor did he have the same kind of obsessive worship of Hitler’s cult of personality. (Incidentially it appears that Goering actually had distant Jewish heritage, according to Wikipedia.) Goering had been a heroic pilot during the first World War with 22 kills, and in one memorable incident actually landed and gave his own Iron Cross medal to a young pilot who he’d shot down:
Like many Nazis, Goering was addicted to drugs. He developed a morphine habit after being shot in the dick during the Beer Hall incident.
During the rise of the Nazi Party Goering apparently became completely carried away with his ego, styling himself with all kinds of aristocratic trappings and dressing in outlandish costumes. He became totally obese and lived a decadent lifestyle, stealing a lot of paintings which had been confiscated from Jewish art collectors. He was also a fan of opera. Whether or not he was actually an intellectual, he certainly considered himself a man of high culture, but in reality was regarded as a pompous fool.
Who would play him in the movies? John Goodman?
You should read The Knight, Death and the Devil by Ella Leffland, which is a novel on Goering’s life. Most of the details are factual, but by using the novel form, she’s able to speculate on his inner life.
I think that you going along the right track to assume that Hess was insane. His behavior before and after Nuremberg certainly indicates that he had some level of mental instability - though I grant conspiracists could argue that this occurred after his flight once he was in captivity and that his flight wasn’t a symptom of this instability.
But FWIW, with a gun to my head I would say the answer is at its core Hess flew because he was a crazy-getting crazier megalomaniac who was losing ground with his other megalomaniac cronies.
In 1992 about 2000 Hess documents were de-classified. Certainly “almost” or “virtually” all the Hess-specific documents have been declassified. Yet the there are Hess documents still classified. Why?
A. Hess’ son says there was a British peace group (which included members of the royal family) and it had peace feelers to Germany & they encouraged Hess to fly.
B. My best guess though is that the KGB and Philby had it right. That the British Intelligence service was in contact with Hess and convinced him that Britain would welcome his mission. There might be Intelligence process and methods that they don’t want to share, in 1992 some assets might still have been alive, they might have made explosive crap up to get Hess to fly “The King will meet with you personally” crazy stuff, total BS but fodder for MB’s for decades (and in the NYTimes article this is precisely what happens to Hamilton).
I think this (“B”) best fits, why crazy would fall for it, risk the flight, be captured, be kept away, explain why Hess Jr. believed there was this big well-connected peace group & have small pieces still hidden from the public all this time later.
Just IMHO - I saw this but didn’t take this on in GQ because I realize that this is a lot of “I thinks” & not a ton of “we know …”