Rules to the top in British Royalty?

I’m not sure that this is completely true. My impression is that the crowns of the Commonwealth Realms are theoretically separate now, and are only united in personal union in the person of Queen Elizabeth II. Each Commonwealth Realm has a separate monarchy and rules of succession.

But, all of those rules are the same across the different Realms, so far, which means that the monarch in each Realm has been the same as that in the UK. Theoretically, Canada could change the succession rules for itself to take effect among the current Royal Family after the current monarch passes on, select a new monarch entirely and establish a new Royal Family, or even drop the monarchy entirely, as other countries have done.

So far, the only option that some Commonwealth countries have taken to change their monarchy is to abolish it, which means that they cease being Commonwealth Realms.

But if the UK wanted to change its succession rules, I’m sure that it would consult the other Commonwealth Realms. The same would go for the other Realms.

(Me? A monarchist?)

I agree with Sunspace’s analysis. Each Commonwealth realm, apart from the UK, can change the monarchy within itself, because it does not affect the others. The most likely change would be the abolition of the monarchy in, e.g., Canada or Australia, but some Commonwealth countries (such as Brunei and Malaysia) have a separate monarchy, so if Canada or Australia wanted to establish their own monarchy, there would be nothing stopping them (except common sense!).

However, the monarch of the UK is legally automatically the monarch of other realms, and the Statute of Westminster therefore requires the UK to consult with those other realms before changing them. I suspect that if it was a commonsense change, such as allowing Roman Catholics to succeed, or giving equality to princes and princesses, the other realms would agree – but it’s not just a formality.

What you’re thinking of is the fact that Private Member’s Bills were introduced to the House of Lords in 1996 (by Lord Archer) and 2005. On both occasions, the Queen made it clear - as she had to do in order to allow the subject to be discussed - that she had no problem with this and that she would accept whatever Parliament decided. Neither Bill got anywhere, but then very few Private Member’s Bills ever do.

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Actually he was created Prince of Wales in 1958, but only invested as such in 1969.

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If I remember correctly, the Statute of Westminster’s preamble specifies that changes to the line of succession to the throne require the approval of every realm (or every realm still in personal union with the UK, anyway). The question is whether this is enforceable.

Well, if it ever happened, every Australian, Canadian and New Zealander living in London (and there are a lot of them), would be personally obliged, as a subject of their respective monarchs, to storm Buckingham Palace and/or the Palace of Westminster in order to depose the illegitimate pretender to the throne of the United Kingdom. The very thought of that should be enough to stop Gordon Brown from doing such a terrible thing.

But the thing is, they wouldn’t necessarily care that the UK succession was changing. The question is, does that automatically change the succession of the other Commonwealth Realms? I maintain that it does not.

Sunspace, I agree with your position. Four years ago, UDS and I had a nice discussion about the issue in this thread: When Did Canada Stop Being Part of the English Monarchy? UDS took the position that if Britain changed the succession unilaterally, it would automatically change the succession rules for the other realms; I argued that it would not, at least for Canada, because the Canada Act provides that no future British law is to have legal effect in Canada.

We agreed to disagree, since neither of us came up with a knock-out argument, but you might find it interesting to read.

I think you could argue either way in Australia. Under the Australian Constitution,

Here, since this is part of an act of the UK Parliament, “the Queen” is the monarch of the UK, and between 1901 and 1952 was in practice a king. So you could argue that UK laws of succession apply, even if they were later changed by the UK Parliament.

Another issue that would arise if the different monarchies in the Commonwealth had different laws of succession would be who was the Head of the Commonwealth. So if (for example) HM the Queen abdicated as Queen of the UK but forgot to abdicate as Queen of Canada, Australia, etc., would she or Prince Charles (now King Charles III of the UK) be Head of the Commonwealth?

An example of this principal is Princess Michael of Kent. She’s not Princess Marie Christine, because she’s a princess only in the sense of being married to Prince Michael.

They must pass exactly similar legislation through their own legislatures, or, under the Statute of Westminster, the change would be void.

Thank you; you’ve made me feel much better. :slight_smile: After reading Cerowyn’s post, I was wondering where in heck I got the idea, because I was absolutely certain it wasn’t any other monarchy I’d read it about.

And don’t forget that William and Mary were co-sovereigns. William relied on Mary quite a bit during their joint reign, and even left her in charge when he was out of the country, which was often.

Did Victoria formally name Albert as Prince Consort all on her own, or did it take an Act of Parliament? I’ve often wondered why Queen Elizabeth II hasn’t done the same for poor Phillip.

My recollection is that she did it on her own - the Crown is the fount of all honours, not Parliament (with the exception of life peerages, which are a statutory creation).

I believe that some felt it wasn’t a good precedent - that it came too close to making Albert a co-monarch. That probably would have happened in any event, because Victoria relied heavily on his judgment. But the symbolism of the title carried problems, so Queen Elizabeth didn’t follow the precedent.

For instance, I remember reading one account where a defeated Prime Minister went to his final interview with Queen Victoria, and Prince Albert was present and took part in the details of the conversation for the transition. That had the effect of making him look like more than just the Queen’s husband, but actually shared in the royal decision-making process.

If the movie The Queen got it right, Queen Elizabeth doesn’t follow that approach, and receives the Prime Minister alone, not with Prince Philip.

William III was more than a mere king consort. He’s an example of a de jure uxoris king because he as a co-sovereign, not a consort. There’s kind of a grey area between king consort and de jure uxoris king. He held real power even when his wife was alive, and remainded on the throne after her death. Had he remarried and had issue his heirs would’ve inheirited the throne instead of his sister-in-law Anne.

I know the sovereign is the fount of honour, but can a queen-regnant actually make her consort king without an act of parliament? William III needed an act of parliament to become join-sovereign with his wife. It’s worth noting that a king has no way to prevent is consort from becoming queen, it’s automatic (barring an act of parliament).

It also took an Act of Parliament to make Victoria the Empress of India, IIRC. She can’t create titles for herself and her kin willy-nilly.

But William III wasn’t king de jure uxoris - he was king by virtue of an Act of Parliament, the Bill of Rights. He also had a claim to the throne in his own right, coming after King james II, the infant Prince James, Mary and her sister Anne. (William was the grandson of Charles I, and cousin to his wife, Mary.)

The convention Parliament changed the law of succession, by making William and Mary joint monarchs, skipping over King James II (still alive) and his male heir, the infant Prince James. William didn’t become king by right of his wife, but by Act of Parliament. Mary was not Queen in her own right either, but also by the Act of Parliament, which made her Queen in place of her father, James II, and bypassing her brother, the infant Prince James.

I think the Mary that alphaboi867 mentioned was Mary Tudor, not the one who was daughter of James VII (sorry if you did realise this but others might have been confused.)

It might be worth pointing out the difference between a title and a style.

Ignoring the House of Lords reform, traditionally a peer – someone holding a title – was entitled to certain prerogatives. He had a seat in the House of Lords if he chose to occupy it, if accused of crime he was entitled to a trial by jury of his peers, who were Peers of the Realm, etc. That went for the individual who was created or inherited a title of nobility.

The titleholder’s spouse, children, etc., were legally commoners (unless titleholders in their own right, which sometimes happened). They were socially entitled to be referred to by honorary language, to be accorded precedence in formal affairs, etc., by virtue of their relationship to the titleholder.

The granddaughter of the Duke of Hallamshire is The Hon. Mary Himuckamuck. That’s a style accorded her by courtesy, in etiquette. Legally, she’s no different from Georgie Pitts who hauls away her refuse. She marries the Earl of Clwyd. He’s a nobleman. She’s not. But she now gets the style of Countess of Clwyd – again by courtesy, in etiquette.

Their son is Viscount Llantwit-Major. He’s a commoner, with a courtesy title and precedence to match, but no legal rights beyond any other subject. When the old Earl ides, then he succeeds to the Earldom and becomes a Peer. Or perhaps he becomes Admiral of the Queen’s Navee, and is created Lord Peckinorder in his own right – at which point he becomes a peer in his own right, pending his father’s death when he’ll still succeed to the Earldom, and the two titles become merged in him.

The queen’s sons are Royal Dukes (and one Earl). They hold titles in their own right. Their wives do not; they become Princesses, Duchesses, Countess, by courtesy via their marriages. Their sons and daughters do not; they get various courtesy accolades, which are styles, by courtesy only, not titles. Princess Anne is a commoner, though something like tenth in the line of succession to the throne. Her husband does not get a special style by right of marriage, though I think the Queen made him something or other. Her kids are “Honorable” (style, not ethical description) but still commoners.

Prince William, second in line for the throne, has the style of Prince but is legally a commoner. When the Queen dies, he will become Duke of Cornwall, and may be created Prince of Wales. Harry holds the style of Prince but anything else he gets will be at the behest of his grandmother, father, or brother as they in sequence accede to the throne.

Anne was created Princess Royal by her mother. Does that count as a title in her own right?

I really don’t think Princess Anne or Prince William, her nephew, are commoners. They’re members of the Royal Family. They wouldn’t be permitted to vote or to run for the House of Commons, for instance.