# Rummy shocked at prisoner abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505 "2004-05-04T19:04:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/21 "2004-05-05T01:49:14Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > What kind of bullshit is this? Every American is responsible for the acts of a couple of shitheads who can’t take orders? Of course not. [I really can’t believe I’m defending serial flake-arse Johnny G] That’s kind of what a uniform means - those guys are in an American uniform - if they fuck-up it reflects on America as a whole (which is why I hope the photos of the British troops turn out to be false, it reflects on the whole of Britain) - That’s why people wave flags in wars, and sing patriotic songs and shout “go USA” or whatever - to show we’re united, together, as one, etc. If you take pride in a soldier doing his duty, being brave - then you have also got to feel ashamed for the shitheads. They wear the uniform, they represent you. As far as Iraq is concerned they _are_ America. [/I really can’t believe I’m defending serial flake-arse Johnny G] ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/22 "2004-05-05T01:55:32Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > Yay, we’re not as bad as one of the worst prison systems ever! Go us!! > > I always thought that we should be held to a higher standard than “Eh, we’re not as bad as so-and-so,” but that’s because I’m naive, I suppose… OK, you got the first part: we are better than the worst. Now tell me: who is better than we are? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/23 "2004-05-05T01:58:10Z")
Squink, I got the part that prisoner was killed, I also got the part that we still don’t know exactly what happened. You wish to speculate, go ahead. Include all 25 dead in your speculation. Human experiments, may be? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/24 "2004-05-05T02:24:06Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Squink, > > I got the part that prisoner was killed, I also got the part that we still don’t know exactly what happened. You wish to speculate, go ahead. Include all 25 dead in your speculation. Human experiments, may be? Why not? Well, geez, I’m willing to go out on a limb and take a guess. Human rights violations. Of course, _your_ violations are “better” than anyone else’s. After all, it’s part and parcel of being the world’s most benign Empire. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/25 "2004-05-05T02:26:43Z")
**Iskander** , who is better than we is irrelevant. This crap is intolerable. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/26 "2004-05-05T02:50:02Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Well, geez, I’m willing to go out on a limb and take a guess. Human rights violations I wouldn’t want to go out on a limb or anything, but you could be right: [Army Has 20 Open Iraqi Prisoner Probes](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040505/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_prisoner_abuse) > [@](#): > > **The deaths of 10 prisoners** and abuse of 10 more in Iraq and Afghanistan **are under criminal investigation** , the Army disclosed Tuesday as U.S. commanders in Baghdad announced interrogation changes and the White House reached out to the Arab world to try to blunt a widening and increasingly damaging controversy. > The Army also disclosed that it had referred to the Justice Department **a homicide case involving a CIA contract interrogator alleged to be responsible for the death of an Iraqi prisoner last November**. That death was at Abu Ghraib prison, notorious during Saddam Hussein’s rule for torture and killing and now the focus of global outrage over U.S. mistreatment. This morning there were only 6 investigations. I wonder how many there will be tomorrow morning? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/27 "2004-05-05T04:18:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Iskander** , who is better than we is irrelevant. This crap is intolerable. Intolerable, yes; and it is not going to be tolerated. That’s what makes us better than the most. And we are striving to do even better yet. * * * “_Police business_,” he said almost gently, “_is a hell of a problem. It’s a good deal like politics. It asks for the highest type of men, and there’s nothing in it to attract the highest type of men. So we have to work with what we get–and we get things like this_.” “_I know_,” I said, “_I’ve always known that_…” Raymond Chandler “The Lady in the Lake” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/28 "2004-05-05T07:20:31Z")
Kinda like closing the barn doors afterthe horses have run off, ainnit? This sort of stuff should not have happened to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/29 "2004-05-05T11:21:19Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I don’t understand your exclusive concentration on US army and police abuses. Every army and police force in the world is abusive. We must be better? We are better. We abuse the least and our abusers are kept responsible the most. Sure. But it’s completely different when you’re at war with people and when your stated intention is to go in and remove the brutal jailor/dictator and try to win the will of the people. What gets me is the overall thinking that we’d go in, act like proper gentlemen, be greeted warmly, and turn things over to the right people, peacefully. When any reading of the past would show that something like this was inevitable and counter to your goals. So, now that the WMDs thing is gone, and now that the whole Al-Qaeda link has pretty much vaporized, we could still sit back on “well, at least we removed this guy who threw people in prison indiscriminately and systematically killed and tortured and humiliated them.” At least we had THAT. Now whatcha got? “well, OK, we do that too, but we’re really not as BAD as he was.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/30 "2004-05-05T13:23:26Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Kinda like closing the barn doors afterthe horses have run off, ainnit? This sort of stuff should not have happened to begin with. Confusing the soldiers by repeatedly telling them that they were fighting “the war on terror” likely led to some confusion over just how _evil_ their prisoners were. If the administration is serious about reducing abuses, they’re going to have to cut back on their terrorist rhetoric. Bad things happen when people actually believe crap like that. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/31 "2004-05-05T15:18:27Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Now whatcha got? “well, OK, we do that too, but we’re really not as BAD as he was.” **We got the most precious thing: the real Democracy in action.** Just realize, while horrific abuse happened in Iraq before, there never was an investigation and punishment meted to abusers; they were promoted. Just think about it for a moment. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/32 "2004-05-05T15:20:34Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Kinda like closing the barn doors afterthe horses have run off, ainnit? This sort of stuff should not have happened to begin with. What did you do to make sure it doesn’t happen? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/33 "2004-05-05T15:25:59Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What did you do to make sure it doesn’t happen? Oh, Gee, I dunno: 1. Make sure that the folks in charge of military prisoners know the rules on military prisoners, per the Geneva Convention. 2. Make sure that reports on widespread human rights abuses in prison get attention and don’t just languish for three months. 3. Make sure that people who kill prisoners are treated just as harshly as if they’d killed a fellow soldier. That’s for starters. Wacky and out-there ideas, huh? Or, of course, you could just keep talking about how there are no more torture chambers in Iraq in sadistically ironic ignorance of the exploding scandal. You could ignore the abuse as long as possible in favor of the idea that any Iraqi who doesn’t want the US there must hate freedom. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/34 "2004-05-05T15:28:03Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What did you do to make sure it doesn’t happen? what did **YOU** do? That is, quite possibly the worst answer I have ever read on this board. I feel stupider for having read it. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/35 "2004-05-05T15:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Kinda like closing the barn doors afterthe horses have run off, ainnit? This sort of stuff should not have happened to begin with. What, you’d rather leave them open and let the rest of the herd out too? I saw the schedule of the investigation into this abuse last night on the news: the investigation began **the day after** it was reported in January. Basically, it was done as fast as humanly possible, and now they’ll be punished. \>Make sure that the folks in charge of military prisoners know the rules on military prisoners, per the Geneva Convention. They do. Even private contractors are required to follow the rules according to their contract. Obviously, there idiots didn’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/36 "2004-05-05T15:40:50Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I saw the schedule of the investigation into this abuse last night on the news: the investigation began **the day after** it was reported in January. Basically, it was done as fast as humanly possible, and now they’ll be punished. somewhere, however, somebody dropped the ball. Part of an investigation includes notifying higher ups about a charge. Apparently, the 60 minutes newscast was the first notification for folks like the Oversite Committee, Bush etc (or at least that’s what they’re saying). one doesn’t wait until the culpable people are in custody before telling the public officials involved that there may be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/37 "2004-05-05T15:47:29Z")
Well, that _is_ a problem. But then blaming it on Bush and Rummy is silly. They’re [condemning it vigorously](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119033,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/38 "2004-05-05T15:52:08Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Well, that _is_ a problem. But then blaming it on Bush and Rummy is silly. They’re [condemning it vigorously](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119033,00.html) :smack: D’oh! Sorry, I thought Bush and Rumsfield were responsible for what the US did in Iraq. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/39 "2004-05-05T16:11:56Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Well, that _is_ a problem. But then blaming it on Bush and Rummy is silly. They’re [condemning it vigorously](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119033,00.html) of course they are condemning it, as they should be. but who put certain policies in place? such as : Civilian contractors responsible for interrogation of prisoners. Military personnel in charge of the prisons ‘not allowed’ in certain areas of the prisons. Decisions apparently made that certain prisoners weren’t to be considered ‘prisoners of war’, thus protected under the Geneava convention. hell - we’re **there** and ‘taking prisoners’ in the first place because of specific decisions made by Bush, Rummy et al. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/40 "2004-05-05T19:13:19Z")
\>D’oh! Sorry, I thought Bush and Rumsfield were responsible for what the US did in Iraq. So if Bush and Rumsfeld are responsible for unforeseen actions (to disprove, show someone who said before the war that we’ll have such abuses) by those directly under his control, does that mean that Cecil is responsible for all of **december**'s posts? Because, you know, the big C should have seen him coming and taken preemptive action. Or better yet, he should have not set up the SDMB at all, since that one poster outweighs all that was done by other posters and represents the entirely posting body? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505.md?page=3)