# Rummy shocked at prisoner abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505 "2004-05-04T19:04:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/41 "2004-05-05T19:42:37Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > \>D’oh! Sorry, I thought Bush and Rumsfield were responsible for what the US did in Iraq. > > So if Bush and Rumsfeld are responsible for unforeseen actions (to disprove, show someone who said before the war that we’ll have such abuses) snip A. see list in my post wrt things specifically linked to administration decisions that led to what amounted to be a serious lack of oversite (foreseeable). B. “Commander in Chief” C. In addition, the continued drone of “we’re in a war against terrorists, terrorism” may have led to additional demonization beyond the ‘average’. but mostly, “A”. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/42 "2004-05-05T19:47:40Z")
No one but Bush and Rumsfeld is responsible for sending over too few troops to properly staff the prisons and guarantee the oversight that such places demand. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/43 "2004-05-05T19:51:34Z")
A: the points you listed were: \>Civilian contractors responsible for interrogation of prisoners. Given this incident, they should be removed from those posts and I think they will be (no matter who’s at fault, this is a PR disaster); however, I must add that private interrogators=/=not bound by Geneva Convention. Contracted interrogators must abide by Geneva Convention as well, according to their contract. \>Military personnel in charge of the prisons ‘not allowed’ in certain areas of the prisons. I’m not aware of this one. Could you provide a link or something? (I do know that the general for that prison never visited the prison complex at all.) \>Decisions apparently made that certain prisoners weren’t to be \>considered ‘prisoners of war’, thus protected under the Geneava convention. Were these prisoners thus considered? (Really asking, not sarcasming) B: Cecil Adams. C: What, you mean we aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/44 "2004-05-05T19:52:14Z")
Not to make light of this, but I think that Rumsfield is just as angry that some soldiers are closet Robert Mappelthorpe fans. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/45 "2004-05-05T19:58:22Z")
What a stupid analogy, **athelas**. Or are you telling me that Cecil Adams hired **December** to come over to these boards to make honest posts, and that people substantially suffered from Cecil’s decision? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/46 "2004-05-05T20:07:18Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > \>So if Bush and Rumsfeld are responsible for unforeseen actions (to disprove, show someone who said before the war that we’ll have such abuses) by those directly under his control, does that mean that Cecil is responsible for all of **december**'s posts? > > Because, you know, the big C should have seen him coming and taken preemptive action. Or better yet, he should have not set up the SDMB at all, since that one poster outweighs all that was done by other posters and represents the entirely posting body? What a crock of shit. **december** is a retired insurance executive from New Jersey who posted some crap on a free message board. That is in no a analogous to trained soldiers who tortured people to death in POW camp. Rumsfeld should resign or Bush should fire him for this. It’s his policies that allowed this to happen. This has caused immeasurable damage to the country and the war effort–both in Iraq and the legitimate war effort in Afghanistan. The situation is out of control. Rumsfeld’s credibitilty is less than zero right now. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/47 "2004-05-05T20:36:36Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > OK, you got the first part: we are better than the worst. Now tell me: who is better than we are? Who is better ? If the broad criteria is the 20th century… most Europeans with the exception of the French (Algeria) and Germans (WWII). Canada, Costa Rica, some Carribean countries, Australia and possibly some progressive Asians. ``` As for Bush and Rummy... they never were in a combat zone and have no idea of what combat and war is... or the things young soldiers can do. So probably they are truly shocked... they beleive their own Bullshit about liberation and flowers. ``` ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/48 "2004-05-05T22:17:18Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Who is better ? If the broad criteria is the 20th century… most Europeans with the exception of the French (Algeria) and Germans (WWII). Canada, Costa Rica, some Carribean countries, Australia and possibly some progressive Asians. So Bush is worse than Mussolini, Franco and Salazar? And what the hell are progressive Asians? Japan? China? Indonesia? Malaysia? Phillipines? South Korea (which would not exist if not for US)? Go kiss Salazar’s donkey. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/49 "2004-05-06T00:25:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What did you do to make sure it doesn’t happen? I know you asked **rjung** this question, and not me, but, as others have felt free to answer it, so will I. I voted for Al Gore. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/50 "2004-05-06T01:09:42Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > A: the points you listed were: > > \>Civilian contractors responsible for interrogation of prisoners. > > Given this incident, they should be removed from those posts and I think they will be (no matter who’s at fault, this is a PR disaster); however, I must add that private interrogators=/=not bound by Geneva Convention. Contracted interrogators must abide by Geneva Convention as well, according to their contract. Shouldn’t have been done in the first place. Really stupid idea - we have control and authority over what our soldiers do, but a hired contractor in a place w/o operating legal system? if stuff goes wrong, it’s our asses, but all we can apparently do is ‘fire’ the contractor, no accountability. The whole ‘private contractors not having to abide by Geneva Convention’ is alone an excellent reason to not use them. Really, when all is said and done, the GC requires that one treats prisoners humanely, why on earth would you **not** want the contractors to be bound by that. Especially since, (and pay attention here), \*\*even if \*\* the contractors themselves weren’t bound by the GC, _we are_. and the prisoners were **our responsability**. So, not even speaking of the obvious shit storm of bad PR this has caused (let alone the risk it places on **all** Americans over there), it will not negate our responsability towards those prisoners. Look at it this way - if you hire a guy to paint your house, and he farms the chore out to an idiot who screws it up, your (legal) beef is with the original guy, you’ve got no contract w/the idiot. The contract here is w/the Geneva Convention. We must, by virtue of that insure the prisoners in our custody are treated humanely. farm out the chore, it’s still our responsability. > [@](#): > > \>Military personnel in charge of the prisons ‘not allowed’ in certain areas of the prisons. > > I’m not aware of this one. Could you provide a link or something? (I do know that the general for that prison never visited the prison complex at all.) Really? do you have a cite for that? from what I recall from her interview, it certainly seemed as if she’d visited there. I’m looking for the cite re: she wasn’t allowed in certain areas, I heard her say it on Today show yesterday. My computer is currently acting wiggy, so I’m going to submit this reply, while I’m still looking for it. will supply it when I locate it (or if I can’t support it, even though I remember her saying it and the Senator afterward saying ‘that’s outrageous’, I’ll retract it). > [@](#): > > \>Decisions apparently made that certain prisoners weren’t to be > \>considered ‘prisoners of war’, thus protected under the Geneava convention. > > Were these prisoners thus considered? (Really asking, not sarcasming) I have no idea. But it’s irrelevant, see above - a nation cannot get out of their Geneva responsabilities by hiring outside contractors. In addition, for example, while we claim that the GC doesn’t apply to the folks in GItmo, the US has still pledged to abide by it’s code, has allowed Red Cross visits etc. > [@](#): > > B: Cecil Adams. You are joking, right? An author, who has a message board for his fans has no responsability for those fans. The President, by law, is the “Commander in Chief” of the Armed Forces, so the ultimate responsability is in fact, his. > [@](#): > > C: What, you mean we aren’t? really, when you’re answering, try and answer the actual point, not just a clause. Bush declared we are at war w/terrorism, then invaded Iraq. The debate rages on if the two are related in some fashion. The actual point, however, was that by continuially portraying ‘those we’re fighting against’ as “terrorists” that leads to a level of deomonization that exceeds the general ‘us vs. them’ gig (IMHO), so that, for example, at this point in Iraq, it is indeed some question who exactly is shooting at us - a former Republican Guard member of SH’s army, or some poor farmer pissed off 'cause we blew up his farm, his family etc and wants us to get the fuck out of his country. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/51 "2004-05-06T01:23:05Z")
well, according to [this](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/World/Prison_Iraq_Pictures_040503-1.html) Karpinski, although she wasn’t stationed at that prison certainly physically visited it, also notes that the interrogation area was ‘in control’ of military intelligence (ie not her -though I admit that’s not quite the same as not being allowed in there it’s a start, and I’ll continue searching). ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/52 "2004-05-06T02:13:06Z")
[here](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4907332/) transcripts from the Abrahms report, > [@](#): > > GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY, U.S. ARMY, (RET.): One appalling statement I heard was where she claimed that she was not allowed in a piece of the prison that was under her military command. Her soldiers were in there. Any soldier, this is not the values of the United States Army or the armed forces, so the fact that she didn‘t get in there and sort out what was going on was the most appalling single thing I‘ve read about it. so, at least a retired General heard the same thing I did, comments on it in public. that should do. I’m outta here for the day. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/53 "2004-05-06T04:15:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I voted for Al Gore. What that has to do with preventing abuses in Abu Ghraib prison? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/54 "2004-05-06T05:03:24Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What that has to do with preventing abuses in Abu Ghraib prison? Because Al Gore would undoubtedly have found some more DIRECT way of dealing with terrorism than attacking Iraq. No Iraq invasion, no Abu Gharib prison problem. I voted for Gore, too, and Bush has made me so proud that I did. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/55 "2004-05-06T05:46:29Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Well, that _is_ a problem. But then blaming it on Bush and Rummy is silly. They’re [condemning it vigorously](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119033,00.html) What, you thought that they’d come out in favor of human rights abuses? -lv ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/56 "2004-05-06T06:02:22Z")
Was the military really on the ball? > [@](#): > > O’REILLY: All right. Well, the damage to the country obviously is just immeasurable. But reading your article in “The New Yorker.” I just get the feeling that the Army, when they heard about it, started action almost immediately. It wasn’t a cover-up situation. Or did I read your article wrong? > > HERSH: This guy Taguba is brilliant. He could have made a living doing – it’s a credit to the Army that somebody with that kind of integrity would write this kind of – it’s 53-page report. > > O’REILLY: OK, but Sanchez the commander put him in charge fairly quickly. They mobilized fairly quickly. > > HERSH: No, look, I don’t want to ruin your evening, but **the fact of the matter is it was the third investigation. There had been two other investigations.** > > One of them was done by a major general who was involved in Guantanamo, **General Miller** (the guy now in charge of Iraqi prisons- ed). And it’s very classified, but I can tell you that **he was recommending exactly doing the kind of things that happened in that prison, basically. He wanted to cut the lines. He wanted to put the military intelligence in control of the prison.** In other words, he wanted Gitmo treatment given to Iraqi prisoners, which meant even to people who were nobodies instead of the hardened terrorists who are at Gitmo [http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week\_2004\_05\_02.php#002917](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_05_02.php#002917) [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004\_05/003854.php](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_05/003854.php) Oh, and we’re not done with the abuse reports themselves: > [@](#): > > Hersh: First of all, it’s going to get much worse. This kind of stuff was much more widespread. I can tell you just from the phone calls I’ve had in the last 24 hours, even more, there are other photos out there. There are many more photos even inside that unit. There are videotapes of stuff that you wouldn’t want to mention on national television that was done. There was a lot of problems. > There was a special women’s section. There were young boys in there. **There were things done to young boys that were videotaped.** It’s much worse. And the Maj. Gen. Taguba was very tough about it. He said this place was riddled with violent, awful actions against prisoners. > [@](#): > > U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year **placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey** , Prime Minister Tony Blair’s personal human rights envoy to Iraq said Wednesday. > **The envoy, legislator Ann Clwyd, said she had investigated the claims of the woman in her 70s and believed they were true**." ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/57 "2004-05-06T06:05:28Z")
I don’t think Bush is being entirely truthful about when he found about all this either. A lot of what’s been said just doesn’t square: [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004\_05/003853.php](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_05/003853.php) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/58 "2004-05-06T06:06:09Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Al Gore would undoubtedly have found some more DIRECT way of dealing with terrorism than attacking Iraq. No Iraq invasion, no Abu Gharib prison problem. Saddam would be still in charge, presumably. Are you saying that a vote for Gore was a vote for Saddam? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/59 "2004-05-06T07:25:06Z")
No, he’s saying a vote for Gore was a vote for **Not Wasting Time and Resources Dicking Around In Iraq.** ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/60 "2004-05-06T10:05:48Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > No, he’s saying a vote for Gore was a vote for **Not Wasting Time and Resources Dicking Around In Iraq.** And leaving Saddam in charge. Thus a vote for Gore was a vote for Saddam. Why is it that when I ask one leftie a question some other leftie pops up with an answer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505.md?page=4)