# Rummy shocked at prisoner abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505 "2004-05-04T19:04:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/61 "2004-05-06T10:29:29Z")
> [@Apos from a source](#): > > The envoy, legislator Ann Clwyd, said she had investigated the claims of the woman in her 70s and believed they were true. I’m not sure about Ann Clwyd’s credibility. Are you? > **[Brendan O'Neill: The missing people-shredder](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/25/iraq.iraqandthemedia)** > > Brendan O'Neill: The horror of one of Saddam's execution methods made a powerful pro-war rallying cry - but the evidence suggests it never existed. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/62 "2004-05-06T13:09:15Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And leaving Saddam in charge. > > Thus a vote for Gore was a vote for Saddam. Wow. You must have your very own strawman factory. Saddam Hussein, WMD, and the “War on Terror” weren’t even on the radar screen in the 2000 campaign. Unless, that is, one believes that a vote for anyone but a Republican is a vote for Satan and puppy-kickers. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/63 "2004-05-06T13:31:22Z")
\>What a crock of shit. **december** is a retired insurance executive from New \>Jersey who posted some crap on a free message board. That is in no a \>analogous to trained soldiers who tortured people to death in POW camp. First, I read about prisoners dying and tortured prisoners, but I haven’t heard of anyone tortured to death. Cite? Second, the analogy is solid. Cecil Adams had a vision that was generally good: a message board for the dissolution of ignorance. He opened it to volunteers (the Army now is all-volunteer) and set mods (officers) to try to regulate it, knowing that there will be a few bad apples. When the bad apples show up, do we blame CA for his lack of foresight, forgetting all the good that the SDMB did? Do we cry, like [Hillary Clinton](http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/04/congress.abuse/), that the problem “is not just in the [one poster], that goes all the way up the chain of command.”, implicating Cecil himself, as the patriarch of the SDMB? No, we punish that poster as we see fit and apologize to those injured or offended, but we do _not_ swerve from our purpos here. Everything fits. It’s quite simple, really. \>Rumsfeld should resign or Bush should fire him for this. It’s his policies that \>allowed this to happen. This has caused immeasurable damage to the country \>and the war effort–both in Iraq and the legitimate war effort in Afghanistan. The \>situation is out of control. Rumsfeld’s credibitilty is less than zero right now. Did anyone credible or listened-to say before Iraq, “Y’know, every war breeds monsters, and if we invade Iraq, there will be a very small group of people who do some horrendous things; thus, despite all the good we can do in Iraq, it’s not worth it”? If so, they can strut a bit. However, we cannot charge anyone with the _unforeseen_ circumstances that arise from their at the time sound policies. To do so would be like blaming for 9-11 all those who (like Kerry) voted for gutting our intelligence and (like Gorelick) set up barriers between various agencies. It’s simply unfair to selectively blame retrospectively. Hindsight is easy. \>Wow. You must have your very own strawman factory. Saddam Hussein, WMD, \>and the “War on Terror” weren’t even on the radar screen in the 2000 campaign. Exactly. So voting for Gore wasn’t a “vote for Not Wasting Time and Resources Dicking Around In Iraq.” either. Use one standard, folks. It’s not hard. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/64 "2004-05-06T14:21:53Z")
Seeing as the subject of intelligence failures prior to 9-11 has come up, it’s now apparent that that debacle didn’t cure the administration of its tendency to look the other way as doom approaches. The Red Cross was complaining about conditions at [Abu Ghraib](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/8601897.htm?1c) last year. Their words fell on deaf ears. Abdel Basset Turki, Iraq’s human rights minister, expressed concerns about abuses at Abu Ghraib to Paul Bremer last November. He got blown off too: > [@](#): > > In November, I talked to Mr. Bremer about human rights violations in general and in jails in particular,’’ he said. Turki told Bremer about meetings with former detainees and the harsh treatment they had received. ``He listened but there was no answer . . . He didn’t take care about the information I gave him.’’ [Now he’s resigned](http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/8601897.htm?1c). We excuse Mr. Bush for 9-11 because the PDB wasn’t titled “Osama, in the library, with the candellabra.” Well in this current debacle, the administration was told repeatedly “In Abu Ghraib, with the prisoners,” yet still he failed to confront the threat effectively. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/65 "2004-05-06T14:23:09Z")
You’re asking for a cite again? wow. I brought in two cites at the top of the page, the first refuting your claim (for which I requested proof from you) that the Gen in charge hadn’t even visited the infamous prison. the second, substantiating what I’d claimed. no comment from you, no acknowledgment that you were wrong, no acknowledgement that I’d provided what was requested. there are presently investigation into 14 deaths of prisoners, cause of death “homicide”. ([cite](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/06/iraq.abuse.main/index.html) ) including : > [@](#): > > The CIA is investigating the deaths of two prisoners that may have involved CIA or CIA-contracted interrogators, according to an intelligence official who spoke on the condition of anonymity Please note, that whoever was questioning the prisoners, they were, in fact, _prisoners_ of the US armed forces, and as such, we were responsible for what happened to them. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/66 "2004-05-06T15:26:11Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Wow. You must have your very own strawman factory. Saddam Hussein, WMD, and the “War on Terror” weren’t even on the radar screen in the 2000 campaign. I asked what anyone has done to prevent abuses in Abu Ghraib and the answer was, “I voted for Gore, because Gore wouldn’t mess with Saddam”. Draw your own conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/67 "2004-05-06T16:08:02Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Did anyone credible or listened-to say before Iraq, “Y’know, every war breeds monsters, and if we invade Iraq, there will be a very small group of people who do some horrendous things; thus, despite all the good we can do in Iraq, it’s not worth it”? No. The people who said that were not “listened-to”. That’s the fucking problem. > [@athelas](#): > > If so, they can strut a bit. However, we cannot charge anyone with the _unforeseen_ circumstances that arise from their at the time sound policies. What you seem to be missing is that people who were opposed to the war just weren’t out to get Bush or something, no matter what the conservative pundits have been blabbering non-stop to the ditto-heads for the last 4 years. They actually OPPOSE WAR because shit like this regularly happens. And its one thing when we’re invading a Japan, who attacked us, and a completely different thing when we’re going into a country to rid them of tyranny. And lots of people knew it before it started. But apparently, the people who were “warped by arrogance over experience, ideology over common sense” [Dowd, today’s NYT] didn’t know it. Apparently, they not only had it wrong about us being greeted with flowers – they were also completely fucking oblivious to the fact that the things that one must do in the course of a war are exactly the things that are not going to win friends. > [@athelas](#): > > To do so would be like blaming for 9-11 all those who (like Kerry) voted for gutting our intelligence and (like Gorelick) set up barriers between various agencies. It’s simply unfair to selectively blame retrospectively. Very silly stuff. Our leaders invaded a country and through what some consider a not too unusual course of warfare (see OP) have ruined any world-wide moral authroity the US might have had. So again, their shock should indicate they’re either lying or stupid. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/68 "2004-05-06T16:18:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Second, the analogy is solid. Cecil Adams had a vision that was generally good: a message board for the dissolution of ignorance. He opened it to volunteers (the Army now is all-volunteer) and set mods (officers) to try to regulate it, knowing that there will be a few bad apples. > > When the bad apples show up, do we blame CA for his lack of foresight, forgetting all the good that the SDMB did? Do we cry, like Hillary Clinton, that the problem “is not just in the [one poster], that goes all the way up the chain of command.”, implicating Cecil himself, as the patriarch of the SDMB? No, we punish that poster as we see fit and apologize to those injured or offended, but we do _not_ swerve from our purpos here. > > Everything fits. It’s quite simple, really. What’s quite simple is that you are a fucking moron. I will use small words this time so that you can understand: An Internet message board is not like the Army. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/69 "2004-05-06T16:59:38Z")
How? \>No. The people who said that were not “listened-to”. That’s the fucking problem. Who said that and was not listened to? (It’s interesting, by the way, that everyone calls those who predicted these Cassandras, while the “No War for Oil!” folks are let off the hook, despite the fact that we haven’t stolen a drop of oil.) \>We excuse Mr. Bush for 9-11 because the PDB wasn’t titled “Osama, in the \>library, with the candellabra.” Well in this current debacle, the administration \>was told repeatedly “In Abu Ghraib, with the prisoners,” **Athelas** , his arms wide. I cannot read your links, but I have every confidence that the truth will out. If in fact there was a credible source that told the military about it and were ignored, that is a Very Bad Thing. But according to that CNN cite, > [@](#): > > Antonella Notari, chief spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said “some measures have already been taken,” without revealing the ICRC’s recommendations. > > “I do think that our recommendations were taken seriously and I do think that now, yet even more, there are other measures that are being planned,” she said. “And we do, of course, intend to continue our visits.” So they appear to be satisfied with the response. I’m confident that the truth will out eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/70 "2004-05-06T17:53:55Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Saddam would be still in charge, presumably. > > Are you saying that a vote for Gore was a vote for Saddam? C’mon, Iskander, get a grip. I don’t think Gore would have invaded Iraq, therefore Gore would be responsible for Saddam’s rule? Are you saying that a president who doesn’t invade the country of a murderous dictator is therefore responsible for that murderous dictator’s reign? If that’s the case – I suspect you will be shocked and awed to learn this – there are a WHOLE LOT of murderous dictators in power RIGHT NOW and who have been in power since Bush took office!!! Some of them widely considered to be EVEN WORSE than Saddam! Robert Mugabe and Kim Jong-Il, to name two. Are you saying that a vote for Bush was a vote for Mugabe? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/71 "2004-05-06T19:13:41Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I asked what anyone has done to prevent abuses in Abu Ghraib and the answer was, “I voted for Gore, because Gore wouldn’t mess with Saddam”. Draw your own conclusion. I’ll thank you to refrain from adding words into the quotes you attribute to me. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I voted for Al Gore. I’m not terribly comfortable writing an alternate history of the world starting from Al Gore’s inauguration on January 20, 2001. That said, even had the events of 9-11-2001 differed only in the identity of the occupant of the Oval Office (a point I am willing to stipulate only for the purposes of this discussion), I am comfortable as hell in asserting that the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and consequently, the position we find ourselves in today, would not have occurred as it did. As for your canard of “A vote for Gore was a vote for Saddam,” I have only one thing to add to **Evil Captor’s** rebuttal to that point: A vote for Gore was a vote for government by a qualified and visible leader, rather than by the venal fronted by sock-puppet. Oh, and one other thing (sorry, I miscounted): Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/72 "2004-05-07T01:17:16Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Are you saying that a vote for Bush was a vote for Mugabe? Are you asking for more trouble, buddy? **Are you?** ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/73 "2004-05-07T01:27:54Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Are you asking for more trouble, buddy? **Are you?** what the fuck do you mean by this statement? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/74 "2004-05-07T01:50:27Z")
> [@wring](#): > > what the fuck do you mean by this statement? Don’t. Provoke. Bush. To. Go. After. Mugabe. Relax. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/75 "2004-05-07T02:01:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Don’t. Provoke. Bush. To. Go. After. Mugabe. Relax. So you are capable of rational thought? who knew? thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/76 "2004-05-07T04:20:20Z")
> [@wring](#): > > So you are capable of rational thought? who knew? thanks for the clarification. May be, just may be, I am not the only one responsible for the lack of understanding between us? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/77 "2004-05-07T11:39:54Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Don’t. Provoke. Bush. To. Go. After. Mugabe. Relax. Nice attempt to deflect my point with humor, but it’s an important point that demonstrates Bush’s unfitness to be President and the horrible problems he’s created for this country. I’m mad about Iraq, not just because we went there under false pretences (WMDs, …right). It’s because the invasion of Iraq is a betrayal of all the people who died on 9/11. It was Al-Qaeda who killed them, it’s Al-Qaeda we should be making war on – not Iraq. Iraq, it is now clear, represent a huge diversion of American arms and energy to something that has NOTHING to do with capturing and/or killing the people responsible for 9/11. Afghanistan, on the other hand, was CLEARLY a direct response to 9/11, as the country was not only harboring but was essentially being run by Al-Qaeda. I don’t think Al Gore would have invaded Iraq. I think he would have prosecuted the war against Al-Qaeda with MUCH more energy and intelligence. The Bush Administration has been a stupid, blundering, blithering colossus of idiocy. THAT’S why I’m proud I voted for Gore, and I’m dismayed at all the people who did. I knew voting for Bush was a mistake. They should have known it, too. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/78 "2004-05-07T14:21:24Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > May be, just may be, I am not the only one responsible for the lack of understanding between us? you’d displayed a certain level of irrationality so far, then made an ambiguous statement, I asked for clarification. you supplied it. when people aren’t clear in their statements, I often ask for clarification. There was some other more reasonable way to handle it? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/79 "2004-05-07T14:54:54Z")
> [@wring](#): > > you’d displayed a certain level of irrationality so far… That’s a new one. I thought I was called names repeatedly exactly because I was too rational and not sensitive enough. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505/80 "2004-05-07T15:51:04Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And leaving Saddam in charge. > > Thus a vote for Gore was a vote for Saddam. Well then a vote for Bush is a vote for Jong Kim-II, because he’s leaving him in charge. In other news, you’re an idiot, go away. Some good news/bad news **Good news** - Rummy is on the ropes! [http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/07/politics.abuse.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/07/politics.abuse.main/index.html) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (CNN) – U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld plans to apologize to Congress and the American people on Friday for not keeping lawmakers informed about the unfolding Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, a senior Republican aide told CNN Friday. I think him and Bush should apologize to the Iraqis, not to the king of Jordan or congress. **Bad news** - Some fuck up things had to go down to put him on the ropes. I hope this bitch gets knocked the fuck out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rummy-shocked-at-prisoner-abuse/243505.md?page=3)