# Rumsfeld: Don’t tell Junior! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022 "2004-05-07T15:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/1 "2004-05-07T15:44:33Z")
The press is of course focusing on the outrage over the actual abuse at Abu Ghraib, but did anybody else catch this nuance, or am I the only one to read it this way? [From the New York Times:](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/politics/06CABI.html) > [@](#): > > …The officials (under authorization from Mr. Bush) said the president had expressed his displeasure to Mr. Rumsfeld in an Oval Office meeting because of Mr. Rumsfeld’s failure to tell Mr. Bush about photographs of the abuse, which have enraged the Arab world. > > In his interviews on Wednesday with Arab television networks, Mr. Bush said that he learned the graphic details of the abuse case only when they were broadcast last Wednesday on the CBS program “60 Minutes II.” It was then, one White House official said, that Mr. Bush also saw the photographs documenting the abuse. > > (From the print copy in my local paper): By April 17 or 18, Pentagon officials have said that Gen. John Abazaid, the commander of American forces in the Middle East and Gen. Richard Myers, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, knew that CBS planned to broadcast the pictures…. There are several ways to read this, but they’re all embarrassing and they make the same point. Not only Rumsfeld, but the entire Defense Department entire chain of command knew about this meltdown, and they didn’t talk to Bush about it until after he saw it on TV. Common sense would tell anyone that the person in charge needs to be told when a meltdown like this occurs, but not only Rumsfeld, the entire Defense Department entire chain of command knew about the photos and didn’t bother. Furthermore, instead of handling things in private, Bush responded by loudly and publicly complaining that nobody tells him anything. From where I sit, the guy looks doubly clueless: they don’t trust him with the truth, and he can’t help but admit it. Be afraid. We have a boy on the throne, and nobody is bothering to hide it, including the President. Sure, the claim that Bush is being led has been around for years and the administration has sometimes acted that way, but I never thought that they would so publicly prove it. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe things are just different in Washington, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/2 "2004-05-07T15:48:32Z")
Nah…much as I’d like to kick GWB with this, I think there’s a simpler explanation. Rumsfield and Co. thought they could bury it internally. They failed, GWB is now pissed, and Rummy is in serious hot water. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/3 "2004-05-07T16:04:28Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > Be afraid. We have a boy on the throne, and nobody is bothering to hide it, including the President. Sure, the claim that Bush is being led has been around for years and the administration has sometimes acted that way, but I never thought that they would so publicly prove it. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe things are just different in Washington, but I doubt it. We only have the stupid American public to blame for 4 more years of this. We have a perfectly good chance to replace throneboy with an equally inept, yet most likely less globally destructive moron, and Watch, throneboy win in a landslide. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/4 "2004-05-07T16:06:45Z")
> [@](#): > > We only have the stupid American public to blame for 4 more years of this. Throwing in the towel already, are ya? ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/5 "2004-05-07T16:10:12Z")
Maybe so, Duke, but I doubt it. They knew that it was going to press, got CBS to hold off for two weeks and still left Bush out of the loop. Does Rumsfeld have a track record of sticking his head in the sand? Besides, instead of shouting that they are out of the loop, I would expect a President to privately lop off heads, especially if rumor had it that he was being led from below. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/6 "2004-05-07T16:14:39Z")
I wouldn’t be surprised if Rummy was arrogant enough to think that even after CBS got hold of it, it could still be buried. Judging by his treatment of congressmen from both sides of the aisle, in keeping them out of the loop, I’d say he did. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/7 "2004-05-07T16:14:58Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Throwing in the towel already, are ya? 1. 288,000 jobs added in April 2. Kerry is totally an idiot, (I’m still voting for him though) he should be blowing Bush out of the water. Not throwing it in, just getting ready for the inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/8 "2004-05-07T19:50:55Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Throwing in the towel already, are ya? Diebold’s still in the game, ainnthey? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/9 "2004-05-07T20:17:01Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Diebold’s still in the game, ainnthey? Not in California. I think another possible explanation that’s been overlooked is that GWB was aware of the issue earlier, but Rummy was willing to take the PR hit and pretend he never said anything, so GWB would remain innocent in the eyes of the public. But then, maybe that’s a tad _too_ conspiratorial. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/10 "2004-05-07T20:21:56Z")
Anybody else getting Reagan deja-vu here? At least Reagan had the excuse that he was suffering from the early stages of Alzheimer’s. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/11 "2004-05-07T20:26:11Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > We only have the stupid American public to blame for 4 more years of this. Then I guess I’m stupid, because I’m voting for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/12 "2004-05-07T20:41:44Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Then I guess I’m stupid, because I’m voting for Bush. Well I’m not going to call you stupid, because from your posts you seem to have your head screwed on ok. Let’s just say I don’t understand what makes him appealing to people, considering the state of things at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/13 "2004-05-07T20:52:49Z")
And I can’t understand why anyone would vote for Kerry, considering the state of things at the moment. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/14 "2004-05-07T21:09:33Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > And I can’t understand why anyone would vote for Kerry, considering the state of things at the moment. 😉 Well, call me crazy (but not stupid 😉 ), but a Presidential candidate who acts like this– “Mr. President, we have this briefing entitled ‘Al Qaeda Determined To Attack Inside the United States Soon.’ This is even more urgent than the other five briefings you received earlier this year. What action should we take?” “Eh, let’s not do anything, this looks like vague, historical information.” –is not someone I want to protect myself and my family and my country from terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/15 "2004-05-07T21:51:12Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I think another possible explanation that’s been overlooked is that GWB was aware of the issue earlier, but Rummy was willing to take the PR hit and pretend he never said anything, so GWB would remain innocent in the eyes of the public. > > But then, maybe that’s a tad _too_ conspiratorial. NOpe. Not for me. I think that’s the answer. Bush probably knew. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/16 "2004-05-07T22:10:38Z")
The first thing I learned in career ass covering school was when you screw up, or when you might get blamed for screwing up, even when you didn’t, is that it goes a lot better when your boss hears about it from you. “Um…I kind of accidentally unplugged the finance server over month end.” or “I though you might want to know that one of my staffers deleted a months worth of data…we are restoring it right now and finding out how to keep it from happening.” or “I kind of had a disagreement with a client today. I explained our policy and was polite about it, but she said she was going to call you to complain, so when you hear from her…” Using this model, assuming GWB is the boss (of which there seems to be some doubt - maybe Rumsfield did this with Cheney), Rummy should have said “Mr. President, there have been some inappropriate actions taking regarding POWs in Iraq. We are taking steps to disipline those involved, but there are pictures, the pictures are going to come out in the press, it looks really bad, and you should be aware.” ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/17 "2004-05-07T23:17:28Z")
Right, **Dangerosa** , report and document. Bush should have been aware, and it’s an embarrassment for him that he was out of the loop, especially considering the gravity of the situation and his reputation of being a figurehead. **friedo** , Bush’s claiming that he didn’t know was the perfect way to announce that he is not in control of the administration, even if he did know. I think it’s absurd that any top dog would want to claim cluelessness about anything that happens on his watch. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/18 "2004-05-08T00:20:36Z")
> [@cornflakes](#): > > I think it’s absurd that any top dog would want to claim cluelessness about anything that happens on his watch. Reagan managed that trick rather nicely in the heat of Iran-Contra. We still have politicians today who seek to emulate the great communicator. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/19 "2004-05-08T00:32:01Z")
I’m okay with believing Dubya never saw the pictures until they appeared on TV. I’m not quite sure whether the decision to keep them from him was made by Cheney or Rove. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t made by Rumsfeld, although I don’t believe for a minute that Rumsfeld had never seen them. I mean, come on, a lower-echelon Pentagon official knows that 60 Minutes II has the photos, and asks that they not be aired for a _month_, and the Secretary of Defense is never informed that the press has them? Or even that they exist? Pull the other one. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022/20 "2004-05-08T00:43:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > lower-echelon Pentagon official The top military official in the pentagon, Richard Myers, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, might reasonably object to your description of him **kaylasdad99**. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rumsfeld-don-t-tell-junior/244022.md?page=2)